[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Sigimund]

with the possibility of intimidating repent being moved into the base detaunt, replace that slot with a brute force style tactic for the dps wanna be's to use.

That does actually make a lot of sense.

[ThePollie]

on the multiple stats problem: how about making willpower contributing to the healing part of the melee abilities? AFAIK right now its only a fixed derivation of the melee dmg? It could even be that that way even if your melee skill is parried it will still heal the willpower portion to your defensive target? (easying the problem with parry/block derivating no heals).

While it would be nice if Willpower added to Radiance's base heal, we already have too many stats to increase and too few points to increase them with. Even if this was made, we can't afford the Willpower to make use of it.

As for making lifetaps heal even if parried or blocked? That could be tricky. The base heal only, at least. The damage portion obviously wouldn't be counted, but it would allow some healing in the event of poor RNG.

I'm on the fence about it. While we could do with lightening the already excessive amount of counters to lifetap healing, I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

[Tklees]

with the possibility of intimidating repent being moved into the base detaunt, replace that slot with a brute force style tactic for the dps wanna be's to use.

That does actually make a lot of sense.

I'd say make it a great weapon mastery tatic for WPs 10% dmg 10 parry with 2hand, and make it something similar for dok. But I already feel dps dok is fine with snare covenant and auto heal debuff in later tiers so buffing that spec is meh IMO for them.

[Tiggo]

on the multiple stats problem: how about making willpower contributing to the healing part of the melee abilities? AFAIK right now its only a fixed derivation of the melee dmg? It could even be that that way even if your melee skill is parried it will still heal the willpower portion to your defensive target? (easying the problem with parry/block derivating no heals).

While it would be nice if Willpower added to Radiance's base heal, we already have too many stats to increase and too few points to increase them with. Even if this was made, we can't afford the Willpower to make use of it.

As for making lifetaps heal even if parried or blocked? That could be tricky. The base heal only, at least. The damage portion obviously wouldn't be counted, but it would allow some healing in the event of poor RNG.

I'm on the fence about it. While we could do with lightening the already excessive amount of counters to lifetap healing, I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

if you look at the itemization of melee wp items they mostly have willpower on it already anyway. I wouldnt touch the dmg --> heal portion but would ADD an aditional willpower healing portion to the dmg heals.

[Azarael]

Thing is, the itemization will stop being relevant when sets and influence items are correctly split.

I also want to see a stacking Str from items -> Willpower buff from single-target melee damage be implemented, so that might be too much of a boost?

[SigmarPriest]

Hello,

befor you start to thing about how to make a grace wp more "vaild" you need to accept that a healer who need to go from a to b to hit a target at b to produce heal is in many situations always weaker then a healer that can pull of heals direct then when they are needed.


Basics

In my opinion the biggest problem from the grace wp is his lack at flexibility. That means if a grace wp is vaild or not depens on to many factors. Factors you have no influence at. How good is your opponent, that mean how much space they give the grace wp and what group setup they play. When you play sc what kind of add group do you have what add group your opponent have.
But even factors you have influence are crucial, what kind of setup do you play. Do you have 2 full heals in your grp? does the grace wp have a guard tank? Do you have another meele dps at your side with guard tank so that you are not the only target in the frontline. That all lead to fight creation. What kind of fight will it be. Do you need to run a lot (independent from the direction, i would say that the grace wp is more vaild in a situation when your fraction make the pressur and push forward but then every class looks better. So long the enemey fraction is not made for this kind of fight, kiting grp). Or is it a static fight (in my opinion the best fight for the grace wp)
Lets take first a look the factors you have a influence at.

Guard Tank
If you don't have a guard tank you have a hard life and maybe a short life. Ok you have a AOE detaunt but guard is much stronger then a aoe detaunt. When you fight against a mixed setup range and meele you need to decide what will you detaunt (DOK detaunt is a bit different). And lets be honest. Only bad tanks are just "guard bots" good tanks support there guard target off and def with cc and more or less with buffs that make the dps stronger or harder.
So should we do here something. My opinion is no. Every meele/range dps has this problem when they don't get guard when it is needed they die. Even off tanks melt like ice in the sun when you focus them and they don't get guard.

Mixed grp setup range/meele
If you play a mixed setup you as grace wp will have again a hard time. When you are alone in the frontline with 1 or two tanks the chance that they pick you as first target is very very high. But again every other meele dps in this situation has the same problem. Slayer, HJ, WL if you have to choose if you focus them or two tanks you focus the dps first. (maybe it is a bit different when the second tank is a off tank, but even then most people will try first the wp). Can we do here something. No, you can not regulate what targets people pick. If you play it like this you need to face it.

2 full heals in grp / grp setup
My introduction already said it. A grace wp will never be as good as a full healer. So when you decide to play 1 heal 1 grace wp you need to accept that you play with 1 1/2 healers. If you play with with 2 heals and 1 grace + 1 dps you need to accept that you play with 1 1/2 dmg. It is the same when you decide to play with 3 dps and 1 tank. You gain dps you loose stability.

Lets take a look at the factors you don't have influence at. I will not talk about every point at his own because i think it all brings us to the same core problem.

the grace wp need to be mobile. Like very other meele class he need to stick to the target or at least he need to reach it fast. For the grace wp it is more important then for other meele dps classes. Because if you calculate in your setup with the meele heal and you don`t get it because the grace wp, is snared, kicked, kd or what ever the whole grp suffer under this.

The grace WP need tools that help him to claim the room he need. The big problem here is that the salvation wp has the same lack at mobility but he doesn`t suffer under this like the grace wp because salvation wp is not made to for the frontline. So if you want to buff the grace wp you need to be sure that you don`t buff the salvation wp.

How we do that? I think to be sure that the salvation wp with 1 hand / book will not profit from a buff is not that hard. Create a ablity. Put it in the grace path at the current position from sigmar's grace and make it only useable when you wear a two hand. So that was the easy part (Btw somebody wrote that sigmar's grace is ****, it is not the best abllity ig but when i remember right the life buff heals you for the amount of the buff. So you have a heal that is not effected from any healdebuff. See it more like a shild with a long hold time and not like a perma life buff. The only shitty thing is 2 seconds cast time).

The big problem is. How should an abillity look like that help the grace wp with mobility. How strong/weak should it be. My big problem is here that i see the grace wp in the same spot like every other support dd too for example engi. If you don`t build your group around this char you will always lack something. But when you build your grp around the grace wp and you have a grp who know what they do the grace wp can already be strong. The only hard counter here is a kiting grp that knows how to kite.
So the buff shouldn`t be to strong in my eyes.

I think we have here two ways to choose.

1) Help the wp to reach his target. Give him a charge or a skill like juggernaut that remove all ccs from you. Or anything else that help him to bypass the space between himself and his target. (Pounce, pull i don`t like both)

2) Help the wp to stick with his target. A simple CC immunity skill. That also prevent that the grace wp get interrupt, but it don`t remove current CCs.

About the CD and duration we can talk because that are vaules that can be easy to be changed. Befor we talk about something like this we need to decide in which base direction the change should go. But the CD should be very high.

3) Another thing i would change independent from the first two things. Make the snare direct. Remove the criterion that it need a curse befor it snares. It helps the grace wp & dps to stick with his target when the other meele dps and tanks are to dump to snare the target for the wp.

4) Maybe add something like a dot/hot like the am has. That would help to pull of some heal even when the grace wp get kicked out of range after.

Why we don`t make the grace wp harder?
Because the grace wp can be very hard if he want to. With leading the prayer, aoe detaunt he is already harder then every other dps / support class. Sure if you run alone leading the prayer is **** but when you run alone and you play a groub build it is your own fault. When you add now a guard tank, and 2 full healer the grace wp is already a machine that only lack when you fight against a range kite grp that know what they do.

So at least 2 other things regarding Intimidating Repent and AP vs fury

Intimidating Repent
Many people complain about the backline healing wp with Intimidating Repent and i am a bit sick of this discussion. People who don't like this combination bring always the same argument. A backline healer should not have such a tool. Ok then lets take a closer look. Intimidating Repent makes you detaunt to an aoe. Everybody know that. We choose a scenario for the example i will bring.
So Intimidating Repent start to count when it hit more then 1 target. But When for example 2 tanks and 2 meele dds hit the wp and he need to detaunt them. What you you think happen regarding the fight dynamic? The enemy push forward and a part from the new frontline is there where the 4 people hit the wp. If that push will have success or not is another question. Because maybe the fraction who push make their own backline open or what ever. The point is, when more then 1-2 people hit the wp the place where the wp stand is the potentially new frontline.
The RP can run and heal when he see that change is coming. The AM has tools to buy time with snare pit, range kick, kick + snare and at least an aoe detaunt. The WP can run or tank till help arrived. Here is another point who many people who complain about this don't read the situation correct. A WP alone without backup heal withouth guard only with Intimidating Repent do nothing against a 2-3 dps. At the moment he don`t regenerate enough fury to heal all the time. So at least when he runs out of fury he is dead. When dds hit you with in and out heal debuff or who habe a knockdown it goes even faster. The only order class that can shine even in this situation is the RP the rp is the class that is in this situation more independent then the wp or am. Sure when the AM and RP think they are a wp and run first when the meele train is in range it is to late. But that is not a problem because Intimidating Repent is to strong or am and rp have not enough tools to buy time. It is because people play the class not like it should be played.

AP VS fury
Most people who complain about Intimidating Repent also complain about the fury heal mixed with ap heal regarding full ap healer. Lets have a closer look here to. First of all. The fury pool is everytime 250. All AP healer gain some AP pool raises when the rr raise. AP healers benefit from every class and ability that raise the group ap regeneration. Am has an AP leech that is an instant cast and can used while you run around. The WP need to stay at the place he need to invest 5 seconds to gain enough ressources for 3 maybe 4 grp heals. All ap healers have tons of possibiltys to raise there ap generation over equip ap jewellery ap cloaks, weapons with ap generation. The ressource cost-benefit ratio from the WP is already the worst from all 3 healer classes (don`t lets talk about souv fury proc that thing is broken). No backline wp who plays only with Supplication and passiv book fury reg will never be a good healer. That he maybe heal a bit more at the sc score board is the result from the fact that his direct heals hit first befor the rp and am heals hit and that is more an aoe healer. But this kind of healing is very restricted. A Salvation WP heals then good when he stay where his place is... between frontline and backline.

Please not that every example for situations are really only examples. You can not show the dynamic of a fight and you can't depict all ways a fight can turn.

That brings me to the last point. Balance discussion in general. Blance depend on so many things, your build, your gear, your level, your skill and so much more and that all count for every member from your grp your add grp and your enemy grps. The grp setup is important, the environment etc etc etc.
For me it make it nearly impossible to talk over a forum or any other text based medium about the topic balance in a way we need to talk about it when we want to change there something.

Sure everybody can write buff ability xyz or nerf it in this way change cd here raise value there. But this is not talking about balance that is the result after talking about balance.

Sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i want to say.

regards

[Bignusty]

-Instant snare whitout the target be cursed before it's really good idea to long to curse and put our Weight of Guilt.

-Maybe add to us a 5 second speed boost on Weight of Guilt like 35% during the 6 second snare

-Add a 10% buff Dodge/Disrupt somewhere like fist of sigmar and Sigmar vision.

-Add a cc immunitie against snare and root.

[Atropik]

Guys, u can do nothing simply replasing ability x with ability y, or tactic a with tactic b, or by mixing set bonuses. Dps wp needs some complex improvments, like armor debuff/ incoming heal debuff + charge + snare immune + burst damage + some kind of mechanic, other Mdps classes have (mutations/berserk/stances), otherwise wp would stay the place he is now. And now he is weak, he cannot guard, he cannot heal, he cannot do damage, but he can try to survive all the time, here is the main problem.

Undefendeable DA, charge, immune? Orly? That's all crap around "/kill dat WE" button or duelling mdps classes, and not RvR balance.

[Azarael]

...

If you didn't read the topic, don't post in it. This isn't about DPS WP and I specifically addressed it not being about DPS WP in one of my posts.

Thanks!

Now, just to point something out: if I had wanted to propose a pure melee healing WP, I would have done so. That's not what I'm proposing. Nor am I proposing WP be a 50/50 hybrid which is 1/2 heal and 1/2 dps, because they don't work. I'm talking about giving melee WP the ability to heal competently and competitively with both casted and melee heals as well as retain the ability to do some damage, at the cost of having to frontline to generate resource. Simple as that.

I would, before looking at any complex solution, want to experiment with working with the things we can do. That means making the AoE detaunt conditional on either having a 2h or having the tactic slotted, and granting a stacking buff on single-target damage which converts bonus Str into Willpower. Everything else is unimportant to me.

[SigmarPriest]

Thanks!

Now, just to point something out: if I had wanted to propose a pure melee healing WP, I would have done so. That's not what I'm proposing. Nor am I proposing WP be a 50/50 hybrid which is 1/2 heal and 1/2 dps, because they don't work. I'm talking about giving melee WP the ability to heal competently and competitively with both casted and melee heals as well as retain the ability to do some damage, at the cost of having to frontline to generate resource. Simple as that.

I would, before looking at any complex solution, want to experiment with working with the things we can do. That means making the AoE detaunt conditional on either having a 2h or having the tactic slotted, and granting a stacking buff on single-target damage which c@Azare

MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependence)
Yes you are right here. The wp need to focus at to many different stats, but when you want to do different things in one role you need to spread your stats. If you can tank like a tank, do dmg like a support dmg class and heal like a backline healer you are to strong.

Forced Splitting
"The healing component of the class needs to be just as effective as it is in the backline when specced for melee, or it's never going to be worth forgoing a book and regenerating resource in the proper manner by attacking targets."
I can`t imagen how it should work in a blanced way. When you are in the frontline you have to deal with ccs, healdebuffs and a lot of damage. When you eat all this stuff in that way you need to eat it with that attention you will get, you don`t die you managed to stick with at your target to ignore at least a bit from the hd and heal at the end of the day like a full backline healer and that without tank support. Then the class would be complete op and more important nobody need a backline healer, if it is a rp a am or a book wp.

Violation of the Mechanic
Yes its correct that the class was planned like that. But i think they see that a class like this will not work as full heal. Thats why they give him a book. The class can work as a grace wp. What do you need for it? Just a grp with the correct setup. Without a grp a grace wp is weak like all other classes.


Guard Reliance
You see it correct, you can`t survive without guard in the frontline. AOE Detaunt will not change this. You need to decide what you detaunt. Meele train or range dps farm and how you already wrote as frontline healer you can be sure that you have fast the attention from both.
Why the Salvation need the aoe detaunt i already explained in my first posting regarding this.

Tactics
Yes here i am with you there are some tactics who everybody thing wtf. But at least every class has this kind of tactics you can't balance a game with 24 classes and around (how many different tactics are ig 24x50 but some tactics are double?) in that way that every tactic has his place. I think that some tactics are just planned as **** tactic to give players an present when they have a level up even if it is not a good one.

regarding your gain loose list i would add this

+ More fury reg through fuled fury because you can sure that this thing will proc every 3 seconds when you are in the frontline.
+ More fury reg through smite. With smite in the frontline you hit more targets as in the backline.
+ You don't need to run to use Rampaging Siphon in the best way. You can pull it direct when it is needed.
+ Divine Assault yes its an interruped bait for good tanks but when it goes compelte through it is the biggest heal ig. +it ignores armor complete.
+ You can heal with Sigmar's Radiance and reg fury while you dmg and you already wrote it you ignore hds
+ Focused Mind is more usefull for you in the frontline

Your loose list is good but one thing is missing.
- You don`t look so cool with a book
- to your "At this level, Cleansing Power, Divine Warding and Pious Restoration" if you want as Salvation wp aoe detaunt you loose the same stuff at the current level.

Gear and Stats
I am here with you that is the pain from wp/dok at the moment. But how ever thats a price that need to be paid. It doesn`t make me happy but you can`t have it all. (maybe later with pve heal sets and at least with souv heal version)

Sigmar's Shield
Yep this abillity is just a lol. But i think that is something we can tweak a bit. I don't know in which way never though about this but i see a lot of potential here.

Your solutions

Guard Reliance
AOE detaunt change nothing. When you want to survice in the frontline it help a bit but with the attention you will get it makes no difference. It helps you to survive till the guard tank switch guard to you. But not more and less. And the idea to make it only for two hand avaible is the worth. It is like you would remove snap heal from rp or snarepit / aoe kick with snare from am.

Grace of Sigmar
I like the ground idea from it but please not only a absorb in the basic skill. If you want buff not the Salvation WP make this ability like this way the part from the tactic is only active when you wear a two hand. And be sure I as Salvation WP would loooove a plain absorb in the basic ability but that would be a bit to op . I would use it much more as healer that stand between backline and frontline even with 1 hand its would be much better then supplication.

Multiple Attribute Dependence
"to ensure that playing offensively meant continually having to go in and fight to power Willpower heals and prevent abuse of Supplication / Blood Offering." i am not sure what you mean with that regarding supplication? You know that there are situations you can just go in and play offense? keep deff attack, environmental fights like wc camping or at least big zerg fights a wp can`t go in there and hit with his hammer to gain fury.
When you want that a guy with a 2 hand is valid you need to give him access to fury reg without beeing direct in combat. Even if you don`t like it but that is a must have. (btw i still hope that you don`t gain 30 fury for the first instant tick at supplication is a bug and not a hidden nerf from you )

Lifetap Mechanics
A strikethrough would help sure. But i see more a problem to come close to you target and much more to survive till you are there. Without guard and stuff. I still think that any kind of anti cc would help a frontline wp in any way. To heal more, to make more dmg and to go back if he need to go back.


In general

I understand the idea to give the heal wp with optional meele heal? an advantage when he goes to the frontline. The problem i see here is that the disadvantage to be constantly in the frontline are to high as you could compensate this with any advantage.

Even if we don`t talk about things like easy target for outgoing & incomming healdebuff. When we don`t talk about the whole cc you need to eat. Alone the point that you already said that everybody focus you when you are in the frontline is that what kills your idea. Sure you could make the wp that hard that he don`t need to much attention from your guard tank in grp. But i don`t know why a class that receive the attention that a wp with a 2 hand got should be the only class beside the tank that survive this. And i am very sure that when an 2 hand off tank would get the same attention like 2 hand wp he would face the same problems. At and the end of the day this class should heal like a full backline healer. Sounds a bit op for me.

Yes mythic made some mistakes. But at least i think they don't were complet fools or are just to lazy to make a wp how they want to make it at the beginning. I think they see that they could not balance such a monster that a wp need to be to do that what he should do when you read the box description and i think it is not a good idea to force a class into something only because the description sounds cool and you want to play this way. I know at least you want only to make it more vaild but when you start to remove something from another specc to make your spec looks better it is a soft force.