Questions regarding Leading Shots and Dity Tricks

[Penril]

Not to mention that the crit tactic on kotbs also increases chance for crit heals

You know, if it were up to me i would nerf KotBS EA/DT stacking (probably by reducing their values by half) as well as Runefang/Emperor's Champion Str stacking (probly by replacing Str for Initiative on EC).

However i understand that many people will say DESTROOOOO SCUMMMMMMM YOU JUST WANT TO NURF ORDER. So maybe a better way to fix this imbalance is by buffing BG or Chosen a little (I would prefer a BG buff for CD, but that was already discussed in a different thread; this one has mostly derailed into Chosen vs. KotBS thanks to our good friend Tesq).

edit: because those damn typos.

[TenTonHammer]

Not to mention that the crit tactic on kotbs also increases chance for crit heals

You know, if it were up to me i would nerf KotBS EA/DT stacking (probably by reducing their values by half) as well as Runefgan/Emperero's Champion Str stacking (prably by replacing Str for Initiative on EC).

However i understand that many people will say DESTROOOOO SCUMMMMMMM YOU JUST WANT TO NURF ORDER. So maybe a better way to fix this imbalance is by buffing BG or Chosen a little (I would prefer a BG buff for CD, but that was already discussed in a different thread; this one has mostly derailed into Chosen vs. KotBS thanks to our good friend Tesq).

oh hah

There was a suggestion recently made that i liked which was that the iniative buff from runefang should be moved and put on Emps champ and the str buff from EC removed

so you were the one that made that suggestion, Yeah thats how i think it should work, make it a surviveabilty morale and as such have it only buff ini, tough and wounds if your going deftard tank then you shouldnt be able to cap str that to for 30s

or http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... 3:;0:0:0:0: for 2h but i am not entirely sold on greataxe mastery instead of oathbound and Grudge-born fury sucks.

Does grudge born fury crit stack with sweet revenge? Ancestors fury? Kotbs crit? i know channeling attacks sucks cause no AA but thats what 20>35>45>65% chance to crit?

[Penril]

Does grudge born fury crit stack with sweet revenge? Ancestors fury? Kotbs crit? i know channeling attacks sucks cause no AA but thats what 20>35>45>65% chance to crit?

GBF should not stack with Ancestor's Fury since they are both Skill-buffs (haven't tested it though; i haven't used GBF yet on my IB). Only the highest one applies. Sweet Revenge, Dirty Tricks and Leading Shots stack though because they are tactics.

[Nanji]

CS seems more valuable now. My job is done.

Let us imagine challenge is easy to remove (if you pay attention to your debuffs), wouldnt CS make up for the lack of crit in that case?
ould chosen be viable?
Ofc there are more reasons for the chosen to be a top tank, but I dont see a chosen buff coming yet so I wont reveal to much.

Still thinking woundsdebuff is at least as strong as 20% crit.

[Tesq]

His comment was not irrelevant. You were claiming that order removed Challenge more easily than destro. He said that you should name the skills/dots on order side that remove challenge so easily. Otherwise, it is just another case of "order has more block than destro".

Let's remember what happened with "order has more block than destro", shall we?

- A Chosen can mitigate more guard damage thanks to +50% parry than a KotBS can do with his +10% block/+15% parry (and come on, you didn't even know that Guard damage could be parried regardless of the source)
- Black Orcs can have more block than SMs (but SM can have more parry)
- I don't know a single IB that specs for Shield Mastery.

So if you claim that order has an easier time removing Challenge than destro, the burden of proof is on you.

this is what i talk about ...again "guard"

guard is irrelevant the fact that i can parry all my guarded attacks is irrelevant COS my guarded attacks can't REMOVE my challenge, ONLY direct hit from dps to tanks remove challenge stack (3x direct hit) and not 3 x hit from any source.
Nanji statement is irrelevant again.

order ranger dps and magic caster hit me directly easier cos i have 10 less % of block which on live was a lot when you start stack only block via renow and equip.

Even if i would stack ALL block /parry/dodge/disrupt which i done on live to cover at least dodge disrupt + ap tactic to keep up that chellenge.

A slayer with rampage would still INGORE and remove challenge with his imba aoe in 3 global coldown.
Again it dosent matter if i play all 3 hits from my guarded . I hope know is clear.

Don't throw me points on rampage that can be removed or it's jsut one skill, 1.4+ meta talk about itself.

[Tesq]

CS seems more valuable now. My job is done.

Let us imagine challenge is easy to remove (if you pay attention to your debuffs), wouldnt CS make up for the lack of crit in that case?
ould chosen be viable?
Ofc there are more reasons for the chosen to be a top tank, but I dont see a chosen buff coming yet so I wont reveal to much.

Still thinking woundsdebuff is at least as strong as 20% crit.

CS would be more valuable if it would stack with challenge

-challenge is easier to remove but with cs you loose it earlier than order BUT it's stronger= tradeoff check

-then you think, why i need to put in effort for coutner something that order have as core meccanic?
-and are a lot of effort, stack crit, crit multiple ppl, still being tanky, need to spec in a path and loose other resistences + stag + disrupt tactic (which is our anti cc tools), or loose better toughness auras + KD+ mixed defense+ armor buff /damage debuff
- 1 tactic slot

solution: x8 tanks can put more effort and try use challenge when require instead spam it in a chronological order

[Tesq]

Not to mention that the crit tactic on kotbs also increases chance for crit heals

You know, if it were up to me i would nerf KotBS EA/DT stacking (probably by reducing their values by half) as well as Runefang/Emperor's Champion Str stacking (probly by replacing Str for Initiative on EC).

However i understand that many people will say DESTROOOOO SCUMMMMMMM YOU JUST WANT TO NURF ORDER. So maybe a better way to fix this imbalance is by buffing BG or Chosen a little (I would prefer a BG buff for CD, but that was already discussed in a different thread; this one has mostly derailed into Chosen vs. KotBS thanks to our good friend Tesq).

edit: because those damn typos.

i also suggested kobs fixes which share some of your toughts like cut half some of the values :/ or move the tactics up so that can't be taken 3x, but only 2x or cannot be taken in t2.
It's true i dont agree on self utility nerf which is not totaly true when kobs reach a 70% armor penetration. So rather have all cut half maybe runfang could be for 1/3.
While moral 2 is fine cos it take the place of raze which is what tank do to assist while wb push aoe.So have a 30 sec boost with otu a moral tactic which chosen have seems totaly fine to me. It's not 30/60 seconds, but more like 30/120 seconds.

[Penril]

CS stacking with Challenge is ridiculous. You always say that Challenge can be easily kept up 100% of the time if 2 tanks coordinate well. Stacking CS on top of that would mean Order's damage is reduced to 52.5%. So... no.

[Tesq]

CS stacking with Challenge is ridiculous. You always say that Challenge can be easily kept up 100% of the time if 2 tanks coordinate well. Stacking CS on top of that would mean Order's damage is reduced to 52.5%. So... no.

yes we can keep it up but order slayer just remove it too easily. :/

[Nanji]

CS: 25% dmg reduction, stays 10s can be refreshed/reapplied without cd.
challenge: 30% dmg reduction, lasts about 3s or less

With 6 skillattacks and 4 autoattacks, in 10s, you will be able to get more than 2 crits without any crit on your gear.
Even disregarding the factor of ae to spread cs.
CS is underated challenge is overated.