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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Trismegistus
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#511 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:53 am

Let us examine Order's mDPS options

Empire of Sigmar - Witch Hunter
Painful early leveling. Painful RvR. Painful PvP. Painful PvE. It's only until you crawl up to 20ish and spec into parry and selfheal, that WH becomes viable in terms of surviving for more than two minutes in the open. Players leaning on the more casual side are not interested in the struggle. Aesthetic favor varies, as not everyone is into the Tailcoat and Brimmed hat/van Helsing/vampire hunter/puritan look.
Knight of the Blazing Sun doesn't work for mDPS due to being literally outclassed in terms of DPS potential, and Warrior Priest is a dedicated melee healer that's unsuitable for frontline engagements. The Empire functionally offers one ranged caster, two melee support classes, and a squishy skirmish unit that no casual would play with the intent of enjoying the gameplay.

Kingdom of the Dawi - Slayer
Pretty viable, and the struggle to level isn't as bad as WH, but frequent deaths are still experienced early-on for casuals. Still, a redheaded midget baby with an axe is aesthetically off-putting when compared to spiky armour/armor bikinis/the Orcs that inspired the Orcs in the Warcraft franchise.
Add in the fact that Ironbreaker is a crappier Black Guard that needs to be damaged in order to achieve its true potential, you're only left with ranged as decent options in the Dwarf department.

Phoenix Kingdom of Ulthuan - White Lion
This one is actually pretty decent. You get to wear animal furs, swing a giant axe around, and sicc a giant, white p*ssy on anyone that gives you a look you don't like. Considering that the only other options for companion-centric playstyles are on Destro alongside the fact that WL isn't a squishy ranged harasser, the only career on Order that's actively played that follows the same intended role as the original devs described is WL, although you can almost group WL and Swordmaster into the same broad role, as 2H SM can do some work with specs in Khaine.
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WH (40/61) SM (40/19) KOTBS (37) IB (32) WP (40/28) BG (35) SH (40/49)

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Greenbeast
Posts: 278

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#512 » Tue May 26, 2020 1:16 pm

Mordd wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:51 pm
Greenbeast wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:18 pm
Mordd wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:58 pm



I love how you just conveniently leave marauders moral drain out of this....
Do you mean the ability in the middle tree? Nobody runs it. It gimps the damage and you have to stance dance. Most of marauders don't use morale drain anymore. Only way of s reliable morale drain on both sides are WH and WE, SOV ability and SF/BH + BO M4
The moral stop tactic didn't work last time we tested it.
Im hit with the moral drain pretty much every city Ive been in.
if the moral drain is so useless you would be good with changing it to something else or give it to order then.
I haven't said it's useless I've said it gimp your damage to the point that it isn't worth taking if you run it.
And why do you need it on order side when you have a bright wizzard with self pump + burning head M4?
Order win morale game in the longer fights because of solar flare and burning head but indeed you need to draft a warband composition for it.
You have morale drain on order side - WH, Solare Flare and Burning head + SOV 8p bonus.
Try to reconsider your idea of blobing and stacking together because it isn't working that good in cities. It event don't work in orvr anymore.
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm
Greenbeast wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:53 pm
You've forgotten 30% self healing buff on WP and 15% healing buff on the kotbs and the fact that you can run 15% outgoing heall debuff on Kotbs. So no a single Chosen aura is t disabling your potential healing.
As for M2 every tank that uses M2 can't bomb you. Since good and not Warbands run 2h tanks they will be out of sinc or a warband must wait for them. Most of them will use raze that can be interrupted or syphoned.
In 2018-2019 any destro warband that would go out without a dps zealot and marauder would have been burned to ashes with morale drop of 7 bws. I haven't seen you complaining. You've just played the meta with overstacking bws and destruction was forced to get an unpopular DPS zealot and bring a couple of marauders to be able to compete.
You need an AM. It's hard to find but it's meta.
It's 20% and requires a defense. So it typically won't be up in the first few seconds of engage unless you sacrifice positioning. Bad Destro will trigger WP defenses with no payoff. Better to avoid hitting WP unless you intend to train them and set them back. Likewise heal output isn't the only limiting factor in WP/DOK heals, and both have over 5-6 tactics that boost survivability/healing/regen to some degree. Exalted Defenses does not stand out at all other than the "high" people get from seeing big silly numbers.
Still this is 20% more healing that you get for playing in mid range and eating of all the fluf aoe damage in 50-60 fts around the fight. And this 20% do add to 25% RP buff and 15% Knight buff.
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm
Focused Mending requires you slot a garbage, nerfed aura and a tactic slot. Decent, but not exceptional.

Knight outgoing heal is a ghetto version of Chosen debuff. Healers are rarely clumped up in a 30 foot range but AOE targets are by definition clumped up in a Chosen's 25% debuff range. Knight debuff is just a ghetto version of BG debuff and unlike Destro, Order does not have an M2 that removes 90-95% of all heal debuffs as well as almost all DoTs and debuffs from all opposing DPS. Also unlike Destro, Order does not have a covenant that constantly spams a curse that masks heal debuffs. Nor does it have a outgoing heal debuff proc on a viable/meta DPS class.
Are you talking about a city warband or orvr warband? Because in the city 15% outgoing healdebuff on one healer is a very strong thing since it will be stacked with 50% incoming heal debuff from a melee dps.
The kotbs has toolkit of BG with +CTBC, -10% to mitingation, 15% outgoing healdebuff auras. It's very strong to build around.

Khaine's Withdrawal M2 has 1 minute cool down and takes siphon/fm slot. The group will not have any tools(siphon,fm) to recover from enemy morale drop/slayer bomb? So you think you can use an ability with 1 min CD to remove an ability with 10/30 sec cd ? That makes no sense to me.

Slayer has 50% heal debuff with 10 seconds CD, BW has a 50% heal debuff wtih 30 sec CD, WH has a 50% heal debuff with a bullet, Knight has an outgoing heal debuff with an aura.
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm
If you're suggesting pump AMs, it's clear you've never played Order to any respectable level. Unlike Shaman, AM have to plant (as the lowest survivability class in the game) and spam a 2s cast that will just overheal someone 90% of the time. It's not good for morale bombing at all unlike the Sham version which can get multiple people to M2 in less than 10 seconds.
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm
As for the much vaunted "BW bomb" rSH with Shaman can get to m2/m3/m4 faster while kiting BWs to death. Marauders can likewise drop 1200 morales, where 2-3 Maras is enough to perma lock all said BWs at 0 morale. This is the real, actual l2p issue. Wizard M2 bomb was never a real balance issue anywhere and merely illustrates Destro entitlement and bad theorycrafting.
Hmm okay.
Firstly I doubt that rSH warband will win anything in a city siege. Because this warband will do no damage and at the time when squigs will reach M4 half of the warband will be dead from slayers/wls that don't care about slows.
rSH have no burst damage. I suggest you to try IB fun warband next time you play and see what you can do with 75 feet telegraph M4.
In orvr yes, it might work in funnels but anything that can spread wont die to it. This M4 has 20(TWENTY)ft radius.

Secondly marauder's new morale drain is a telegraph ability that hits in front of him in 40 feet range that require him to stance dance. Marauder can't do aoe damage in brutality and that's more important he lose his defensive buff of the gift of monstrosity that make's him very vulnerable. It can be punished for it and it pays his damage output for it.

BW bomb wasn't a problem indeed, the problem was to find and keep a good dps zealot player and 2-3 marauders. And without them you couldn't compete vs 6-7 BW + Slayer stacks. This was the meta, not problem.

Your meta now is to bring one AM to the warband to pump one or two players. You don't need full morale drop on order to counter destro morale drop. But the grass is greener on other side, isn't it?

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normanis
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#513 » Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm

destro has more city wins than order. here we see how well balanced is endgame and clases.

Josewales
Posts: 46

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#514 » Tue May 26, 2020 1:57 pm

Cool factor plays a big part of choice. I have been saying that since I joined the server. Destro are better pushers because they have more big bodies up front. Balling up and spamming is their bread and butter.

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Vayra
Posts: 568

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#515 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:08 pm

normanis wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm
destro has more city wins than order. here we see how well balanced is endgame and clases.
We have spent 50 pages going over this by now, how have you not gotten it yet? The reason is population distributions (both between realms and within each realm). Destro has more players, so they need to form full warbands to get into city with any reliability. Order doesn't, and have an abundance of dps classes that are not great in city and a lack of tanks, and so form less warbands and thus more solo players, who get put in against the destro warbands that have a proper 8/8/8 setup, which presents a big advantage to destro. Having a guaranteed 8/8/8 setup vs 24 randoms that may have 1 tank and 6 healers total (I've seen this happen, works pretty well on stage 2 since you can burn down both lords super fast funnily enough), is not a fair fight. The warband has to be pretty bad to lose that (or the randoms get really lucky in composition).

If order were to form 8/8/8 warbands before queuing to city, they would have a far better winrate (as evidenced by the order players who do that now and do win instances regularly). Even if class synergies aren't optimal, odds are the warband you face isn't optimal either, it's just made sure it has 8 tanks and 8 healers and may have been somewhat selective in which dps they bring (but most aren't as I've repeatedly gotten a spot as a dps dok). That is a fair fight and you would likely see much closer to 50/50 winrates if that was the majority of instances.

If that were to happen, there'd still be some bad pugs getting matched up against /5 wbs, but that's inevitable so long as one side has a population advantage.
Vayra - Sorc
Forkrul - DoK
Kalyth - BG

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DiMakss
Posts: 49

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#516 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:52 pm

normanis wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm
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Ekundu01
Posts: 210

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#517 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:06 pm

normanis wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm
destro has more city wins than order. here we see how well balanced is endgame and clases.
Balance hardly has anything to do with win rates.

Last week i did a city on order side. And i noticed a few things contributing why destro wins more cities.

Biggest factor is /5 LFG spam. On destro side as soon as city hits the /5 scroll is real. Lots of players forming groups looking for comp set ups and specific classes. The chat flys by so fast you can hardly read it. You might not win every time you make a group instead of leaving it up the RNG gods and solo que but your chances go up if you at least have at least a 2/2/2 set up for a 6man bare minimum.

Order side /5 LFG for cities is not nearly as active. Very few compared to destro side /5. But yet we still have 15+ instances running probably closer to 20+. Was very sad to not see more forming groups. So i would imagine most of order that is going in cities outside of full guild 24 man wbs are just hoping RNG gets them a good instance. I didn't even really see small man groups trying to form like 6 man or 12 or 18 that i see a lot of on destro side. I attempted to find a grp/wb on my WP but didn't get one so i attempted to solo que it.

Icing on the cake i get in a city on my WP and before it even starts we already have one downer saying they are just there to get 3 medals. That attitude is cancer, hadn't even been steam rolled once the timer was still ticking down to start the instance. We happened to be pug on pug in city and we won 3-0.

I think half the problem with order is just plain terrible attitudes. Players don't want to make groups, and accept defeat before anything has started. This has nothing to do with balance.
Trismack - Black Sheep

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Trismegistus
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#518 » Tue May 26, 2020 4:19 pm

DiMakss wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:52 pm
normanis wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm
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Tanks and mDPS are in high demand on Order.

What you mostly end up with for pub scenarios and RvR are healers, mages, and midget engineers.
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Keep moving beyond the endless, moving darkness

WH (40/61) SM (40/19) KOTBS (37) IB (32) WP (40/28) BG (35) SH (40/49)

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Kwatchi
Posts: 91

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#519 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:02 pm

Ekundu01 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:06 pm
normanis wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 1:48 pm
destro has more city wins than order. here we see how well balanced is endgame and clases.
Balance hardly has anything to do with win rates.

Last week i did a city on order side. And i noticed a few things contributing why destro wins more cities.

Biggest factor is /5 LFG spam. On destro side as soon as city hits the /5 scroll is real. Lots of players forming groups looking for comp set ups and specific classes. The chat flys by so fast you can hardly read it. You might not win every time you make a group instead of leaving it up the RNG gods and solo que but your chances go up if you at least have at least a 2/2/2 set up for a 6man bare minimum.

Order side /5 LFG for cities is not nearly as active. Very few compared to destro side /5. But yet we still have 15+ instances running probably closer to 20+. Was very sad to not see more forming groups. So i would imagine most of order that is going in cities outside of full guild 24 man wbs are just hoping RNG gets them a good instance. I didn't even really see small man groups trying to form like 6 man or 12 or 18 that i see a lot of on destro side. I attempted to find a grp/wb on my WP but didn't get one so i attempted to solo que it.

Icing on the cake i get in a city on my WP and before it even starts we already have one downer saying they are just there to get 3 medals. That attitude is cancer, hadn't even been steam rolled once the timer was still ticking down to start the instance. We happened to be pug on pug in city and we won 3-0.

I think half the problem with order is just plain terrible attitudes. Players don't want to make groups, and accept defeat before anything has started. This has nothing to do with balance.
I do love these anecdotes from Destro tourists. One guy complained so all Order have terrible attitudes. Over simplification for the win. There are a myriad of reasons for the present state - claiming some beat down PUG's attitude is an overarching reason is pretty weak.

3 or 4 cities back we had a Destro group give up after the first stage 1 engagement. It didn't proclaim that all Destro are face-rolling terribles who can't adapt (my personal experience certainly proved that right?); but it does reinforce that being rolfstomped is bloody unfun and sticking end game gear in a situation where that occurs is a poor idea from a player retention stand point.


Changing topics: have any of you ever wondered who came up with the Altdorf stage 3 where both Lords move to the throne room forcing Order to enter into a smaller space right next to the Destro spawn? You know, the Order ranged-heavy faction pushing into half the map and corralled in with the Destro melee-centric faction. Things like THAT contribute to the City balance issues... and could be fixed if the devs ever got mildly interested.
Slayer - 40/7x
Archmage - 40/7x

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 519

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#520 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:31 pm

The pugs who brainlessly spam RDPS are not bright enough or care enough to read these walls of text ppl are putting here so this whole thread is wasted time.

Only chance to save Order is to implement hard locks on playing so many RDPS. Maybe ppl would mass quit if that happened and they couldn't play their SW Legolas wannabe, idk.

Its that or accept that you have a massive handicap playing pug order/non-premade and its never going to change. Its been what, 12 years? You're not going to be able to reason idiots into not being idiots, "they play what they want to play."
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/77) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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