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mogt
Legacy RR80
Posts: 363

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#31 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm

NB do the position check, and it flips the actionbar, which enemy you have in the target, and that is cheating, yeak you an do a sequenze with a gaming mpouse or keyboard, that is right, but no posion check, and that the mistake from NB lokk youtube cideos, and you can see, that NB ise position checks and other strings

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Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#32 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:17 pm

Darosh wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Spoiler:
I mean, seriously... Everything else being equal, the difference between a 6man using Enemy and Buffhead vs a 6man that is not is HUGE. The difference between NB users and non, is negligable. The NB users don't have access to information non-users pysically can't access. NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check. I understand people are viciously against it, but just repeating that it is cheating because of strings is... Ignorant.

Go check out Enemy. Go to configuration, and Unit Frames. Go fiddle around with the Click Casting, and tell me that isn't the same damn thing. I can configure it to cast different spells on each Click (Rclick, Lclick, Middle Mouse, and Shift+, Alt+, Ctrl+) with a different spell for each class type(tank/DPS/healer) or for all types except for that one... Enemy decides for you what you cast with each click, depending on whom you are clicking on. All preconfigured. I feel sure with some digging you could add some basic work-arounds to function as conditionals as well.

You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!

But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"? The only 2 I have any issue with is the conditional for facing Rear of the enemy. But, having tried to make this work on my WH way back in the day, I can tell you that it quite often just leads to you not getting any attack off, and Bunny Hopping. Bhopping is cancer on a server with the latency issues and teleporting that this one does. The others; Stacking for HoTs/DoTs, HP levels, Mechanic/stance, Virtual Cooldown, etc none of these provide you with anything broken. They just help to avoid utilizing 40+ hotkeys...

And as Lileldys said, NB makes the decision for you based on how you built it. The difference between building a cast rotation and pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, vs pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, aint that different. It's the same number of abilities in the same amount of time(or less if NB decides to bug out). But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE. And even with cast sequence you can still build Macro's to do basically the same thing... I'm not a Macro expert by any means, but I know you didn't even technically need NB during live to build an attack sequence.

Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...


Edit: I should say though, that NB and similar addons make it far easier to Bot with than without. And NB basically enabled Multi-boxing to grow to the lvl it was on Live. But targetting Macro's and tying a few abilities together can be accomplished w/o these addons, so it's not like removing NB will end all Botting/cheating.

However, Yes. NB can directly be used to Cheat via Botting. But, it is the botting that is the cheating, but the NB usage...
After having tried NB on my tiny RP alt, my biggest grudge with NB has shifted from conditional checks to the elimination of human error in execution rather than assessment, fumbling hotykeys in the heat of an engagement might seem trivial but it's part of the game (e.g.: fatfingering, missclicking, premature casting - spam casting that is partly prompted by input lag/latency,...).

You can set NB up to block unnecessary casts (e.g.: HoT coverage, w/e) - the most simple way being to slap an instance of AA into the string, at its very end (it checks for conditions and defaults to AA instead of cycling back).
If I were to transfer that onto a tank and guard... the risk of nasty guard drops and failed swaps (e.g.: frequent due hardswaps, solo tanking, w/e) that make or break engagements is eliminated.

You have to (hard)swap from Bob to Jeff and happen to missclick/spamcast/fatfinger Guard before you swapped friendly targets - Jeff dies because he didn't receive guard in time, Bob likely dies next, either because Jeff was the only healer around or because he is next in line and you happen to hit guard a tiny bit faster than you manage to swap friendly target, again.
Maybe Bob died alongside Jeff, because you had to make a call and prioritize ... and because for a GCD neither of them had guard because fingers.
~ Target has no Guard? Cast Guard. Target has Guard? Cast AA.

I'd say the translation from thought to action and the error margin therein is just as important as the thought alone; unterstanding why/that X ,Y Z has to happen != making it happen consistently.
No need for guard, enemy alredy show who is guard and buffhead show who is guarding who. Also double guard someone prevent that one from time when his tank get punt.

I dont get AA talk auto attack will happen between any skill unless you are channeling.
Usefull Melee channeling can be count on a hand, bw/sorc main cultrip of this NB hate dont even auto attack

Pots talk is stupid, even without condition of you slap 2 pot healing on 1 button the one with out CD will go behind the other one by default this is just button economy....you can do it with a mouse too...same goes for ap pot. Put everything on 1 button with condition those is retarded and is very much related to some ppl wich i see being swarmed around due play solo which waste pots that way xD.

Just keep 2 button and yiu decide the best moment to use pots which is definetly better.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#33 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:22 pm

Spoiler:
Darosh wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Spoiler:
I mean, seriously... Everything else being equal, the difference between a 6man using Enemy and Buffhead vs a 6man that is not is HUGE. The difference between NB users and non, is negligable. The NB users don't have access to information non-users pysically can't access. NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check. I understand people are viciously against it, but just repeating that it is cheating because of strings is... Ignorant.

Go check out Enemy. Go to configuration, and Unit Frames. Go fiddle around with the Click Casting, and tell me that isn't the same damn thing. I can configure it to cast different spells on each Click (Rclick, Lclick, Middle Mouse, and Shift+, Alt+, Ctrl+) with a different spell for each class type(tank/DPS/healer) or for all types except for that one... Enemy decides for you what you cast with each click, depending on whom you are clicking on. All preconfigured. I feel sure with some digging you could add some basic work-arounds to function as conditionals as well.

You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!

But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"? The only 2 I have any issue with is the conditional for facing Rear of the enemy. But, having tried to make this work on my WH way back in the day, I can tell you that it quite often just leads to you not getting any attack off, and Bunny Hopping. Bhopping is cancer on a server with the latency issues and teleporting that this one does. The others; Stacking for HoTs/DoTs, HP levels, Mechanic/stance, Virtual Cooldown, etc none of these provide you with anything broken. They just help to avoid utilizing 40+ hotkeys...

And as Lileldys said, NB makes the decision for you based on how you built it. The difference between building a cast rotation and pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, vs pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, aint that different. It's the same number of abilities in the same amount of time(or less if NB decides to bug out). But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE. And even with cast sequence you can still build Macro's to do basically the same thing... I'm not a Macro expert by any means, but I know you didn't even technically need NB during live to build an attack sequence.

Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...


Edit: I should say though, that NB and similar addons make it far easier to Bot with than without. And NB basically enabled Multi-boxing to grow to the lvl it was on Live. But targetting Macro's and tying a few abilities together can be accomplished w/o these addons, so it's not like removing NB will end all Botting/cheating.

However, Yes. NB can directly be used to Cheat via Botting. But, it is the botting that is the cheating, but the NB usage...
After having tried NB on my tiny RP alt, my biggest grudge with NB has shifted from conditional checks to the elimination of human error in execution rather than assessment, fumbling hotykeys in the heat of an engagement might seem trivial but it's part of the game (e.g.: fatfingering, missclicking, premature casting - spam casting that is partly prompted by input lag/latency,...).

You can set NB up to block unnecessary casts (e.g.: HoT coverage, w/e) - the most simple way being to slap an instance of AA into the string, at its very end (it checks for conditions and defaults to AA instead of cycling back).
If I were to transfer that onto a tank and guard... the risk of nasty guard drops and failed swaps (e.g.: frequent due hardswaps, solo tanking, w/e) that make or break engagements is eliminated.

You have to (hard)swap from Bob to Jeff and happen to missclick/spamcast/fatfinger Guard before you swapped friendly targets - Jeff dies because he didn't receive guard in time, Bob likely dies next, either because Jeff was the only healer around or because he is next in line and you happen to hit guard a tiny bit faster than you manage to swap friendly target, again.
Maybe Bob died alongside Jeff, because you had to make a call and prioritize ... and because for a GCD neither of them had guard because fingers.
~ Target has no Guard? Cast Guard. Target has Guard? Cast AA.

I'd say the translation from thought to action and the error margin therein is just as important as the thought alone; unterstanding why/that X ,Y Z has to happen != making it happen consistently.
How does the fat finger argument not include NB? YOu mean to press button 1, but you hit button 2. NB wont make button 2 do what button 1 does just cause you made a mistake. Edit: Technically, you could add in dozens of conditionals to alleviate this, but I have zero confidence it would work, and it would require you to have literally maybe 4 buttons total to do everything. Anyone here ever played against a Bot and thought, "oh dear god, why would they do that now?" well, that's what happens if you go crazy with NB. You do stupid **** like a Bot, not exactly an advantage.

That is a good point however. I just don't believe it applies solely to NB, nor do I believe that it applies more to NB than other addons. I know for a fact, that my healing "skill" would plummet if I didn't have Enemy telling me which Party member has a Debuff that my class can Cleanse before I target them moreso than if I had to extend from my 30ish hotkeys now to 40+.

And NB isn't perfect, it **** up and casts the wrong spell if you are too quick, or just because it decides to stop functioning as well...
Spoiler:
mogt wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
NB do the position check, and it flips the actionbar, which enemy you have in the target, and that is cheating, yeak you an do a sequenze with a gaming mpouse or keyboard, that is right, but no posion check, and that the mistake from NB lokk youtube cideos, and you can see, that NB ise position checks and other strings
I don't even know what you are trying to say here. NB doesn't flip your action bar. NB can be set to run a position check, as has been confirmed by others that use NB though, setting that up is a good way to guarantee that it wont work however... But it doesn't ignore any positional check, it doesn't inherently do anything that you can't do yourself. Arguing Skill decrease is NOT the same as cheating...
Last edited by Dabbart on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Telperien
Posts: 548

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#34 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:25 pm

mogt wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
NB do the position check, and it flips the actionbar, which enemy you have in the target, and that is cheating, yeak you an do a sequenze with a gaming mpouse or keyboard, that is right, but no posion check, and that the mistake from NB lokk youtube cideos, and you can see, that NB ise position checks and other strings
It doesn't flip anything, you watched too often Teggz videos who manually scroll action bars using mapped key.
Slacking (checking out EvE)

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Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#35 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:29 pm

what dabbart said in his last sentence if it was that way then any addon would mean cheating.

Ehi enemy add on make a.smoother ui to heal with which dont make kill your eyes upon it , well that's cheating because a bad ui is exatly wanted to make the game HARDER.

XD

Try play vs bw/sorc without enemy and buff head lol masse will rejoice.

This is the same talk.of armor.pot being.op, if you remove.armor.pot then all ppl which have not a tank with armor buff .will be farmed by premades lol but ppl still dont get it. There are things in this game which make casuals life easier and not viceversa.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Telen
Posts: 2351
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Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#36 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Darosh wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
Uh, G600 would like to have a word with you.
So the answer is go and buy a gaming mouse. Maybe even get a gaming pad. At least NB is a free advantage open to all not an economic advantage.
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Darosh
Banned
Posts: 1198

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#37 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:48 pm

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:22 pm
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Darosh wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Spoiler:
I mean, seriously... Everything else being equal, the difference between a 6man using Enemy and Buffhead vs a 6man that is not is HUGE. The difference between NB users and non, is negligable. The NB users don't have access to information non-users pysically can't access. NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check. I understand people are viciously against it, but just repeating that it is cheating because of strings is... Ignorant.

Go check out Enemy. Go to configuration, and Unit Frames. Go fiddle around with the Click Casting, and tell me that isn't the same damn thing. I can configure it to cast different spells on each Click (Rclick, Lclick, Middle Mouse, and Shift+, Alt+, Ctrl+) with a different spell for each class type(tank/DPS/healer) or for all types except for that one... Enemy decides for you what you cast with each click, depending on whom you are clicking on. All preconfigured. I feel sure with some digging you could add some basic work-arounds to function as conditionals as well.

You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!

But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"? The only 2 I have any issue with is the conditional for facing Rear of the enemy. But, having tried to make this work on my WH way back in the day, I can tell you that it quite often just leads to you not getting any attack off, and Bunny Hopping. Bhopping is cancer on a server with the latency issues and teleporting that this one does. The others; Stacking for HoTs/DoTs, HP levels, Mechanic/stance, Virtual Cooldown, etc none of these provide you with anything broken. They just help to avoid utilizing 40+ hotkeys...

And as Lileldys said, NB makes the decision for you based on how you built it. The difference between building a cast rotation and pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, vs pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, aint that different. It's the same number of abilities in the same amount of time(or less if NB decides to bug out). But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE. And even with cast sequence you can still build Macro's to do basically the same thing... I'm not a Macro expert by any means, but I know you didn't even technically need NB during live to build an attack sequence.

Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...


Edit: I should say though, that NB and similar addons make it far easier to Bot with than without. And NB basically enabled Multi-boxing to grow to the lvl it was on Live. But targetting Macro's and tying a few abilities together can be accomplished w/o these addons, so it's not like removing NB will end all Botting/cheating.

However, Yes. NB can directly be used to Cheat via Botting. But, it is the botting that is the cheating, but the NB usage...
After having tried NB on my tiny RP alt, my biggest grudge with NB has shifted from conditional checks to the elimination of human error in execution rather than assessment, fumbling hotykeys in the heat of an engagement might seem trivial but it's part of the game (e.g.: fatfingering, missclicking, premature casting - spam casting that is partly prompted by input lag/latency,...).

You can set NB up to block unnecessary casts (e.g.: HoT coverage, w/e) - the most simple way being to slap an instance of AA into the string, at its very end (it checks for conditions and defaults to AA instead of cycling back).
If I were to transfer that onto a tank and guard... the risk of nasty guard drops and failed swaps (e.g.: frequent due hardswaps, solo tanking, w/e) that make or break engagements is eliminated.

You have to (hard)swap from Bob to Jeff and happen to missclick/spamcast/fatfinger Guard before you swapped friendly targets - Jeff dies because he didn't receive guard in time, Bob likely dies next, either because Jeff was the only healer around or because he is next in line and you happen to hit guard a tiny bit faster than you manage to swap friendly target, again.
Maybe Bob died alongside Jeff, because you had to make a call and prioritize ... and because for a GCD neither of them had guard because fingers.
~ Target has no Guard? Cast Guard. Target has Guard? Cast AA.

I'd say the translation from thought to action and the error margin therein is just as important as the thought alone; unterstanding why/that X ,Y Z has to happen != making it happen consistently.
How does the fat finger argument not include NB? YOu mean to press button 1, but you hit button 2. NB wont make button 2 do what button 1 does just cause you made a mistake.

That is a good point however. I just don't believe it applies solely to NB, nor do I believe that it applies more to NB than other addons. I know for a fact, that my healing "skill" would plummet if I didn't have Enemy telling me which Party member has a Debuff that my class can Cleanse before I target them moreso than if I had to extend from my 30ish hotkeys now to 40+.

And NB isn't perfect, it **** up and casts the wrong spell if you are too quick, or just because it decides to stop functioning as well...
Spoiler:
mogt wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm
NB do the position check, and it flips the actionbar, which enemy you have in the target, and that is cheating, yeak you an do a sequenze with a gaming mpouse or keyboard, that is right, but no posion check, and that the mistake from NB lokk youtube cideos, and you can see, that NB ise position checks and other strings
I don't even know what you are trying to say here. NB doesn't flip your action bar. NB can be set to run a position check, as has been confirmed by others that use NB though, setting that up is a good way to guarantee that it wont work however... But it doesn't ignore any positional check, it doesn't inherently do anything that you can't do yourself. Arguing Skill decrease is NOT the same as cheating...
Have hotkeys next to another, let one be guard, fatfinger guard, drop guard -> dead guardee.
Have hotkeys next to another, let one be guard, setup NB string that defaults to AA if friendly target has guard/out of range, fatfinger guard, cast AA ~

Have hotkeys next to another, let them be hots/dots w/e, setup NB strings that default to AA if friendly/enemy target has hots/dots <any other condition> -> no premature reapplication, no lost gcds (iirc AA doesn't invoke GCD upon use, neither through NB nor stock UI), no CD invocation due to missclicked/fatfingered casts (e.g.: channels).

You can roll your face across the keyboard during combat and still won't hit a <wrong> key as such if you half-arsedly setup NB, let alone if you set it up properly.
Congratulations.

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Telperien
Posts: 548

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#38 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:53 pm

Darosh, non-user still got advantage, he can press buttons every 1.2s but NB-user is bound to 1.5s ticks. How do you think, better timing win fight or better skill/buff/debuff applying?
Slacking (checking out EvE)

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1734

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#39 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:58 pm

If NB did not give you an advantage, you would not go to all these lengths to defending, justifying and setting it up... It minimizes the risk of human error, allows for better optimized casting sequences and by "taking reins" allows the player to better focus on other events that require attention.
And because you know all of this, many spend hours building their NBstrings because it gives them an advantage over other players who have to do it all manually without an addon playing the game and doing decisions for them.

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Darosh
Banned
Posts: 1198

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#40 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:13 pm

Telperien wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:53 pm
Darosh, non-user still got advantage, he can press buttons every 1.2s but NB-user is bound to 1.5s ticks. How do you think, better timing win fight or better skill/buff/debuff applying?
A missclick costs you more than 0.3s, chances are your target isn't in range during these 0.3s or the hamsters are revolting again - unless you can maintain >=95% uptime on a target you won't notice 0.3s difference, and if you can maintain that uptime you'll be in a position in which 0.3s strictly don't matter.
Moreso, NB doesn't enforce 1.5s outside of its string, does it? Use stock hotkeys for time sensitive stuff (e.g.: mdps rotation, 1-5 skills) and use NB for failsafes on things you can't/won't (mindlessly) spam anyways.
Congratulations.

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