Seeing a big Trend with Solo Regen Chosen.

[tazdingo]

there's a lot of people who don't remember the alpha days where there was no such thing as solo because shaman checkmated everything simply by existing

I never played alpha or even beta. Started the day WAR was released. Do you remember any shaman skill functions way back then?

I meant loosely here. no my point was more that to my memory regen gear didn't kill solo, it enabled it. before fleshrenders were in you either played a healer or didn't bother, I think IB/BG did OK with their self heal still existing

i think the bigger issue to fix might be easy non-phys and "true" damage. if a 100% def specced chosen couldn't do damage for free it wouldn't be a problem. no reason to kill regen entirely (which making heal debuffs affect it would do.) regen is useful in a lot of contexts and would be sad to see it gone when its not the core problem, just an enabler of it. notable free damage on def specs (via auras and self procs) is the real issue

[Shieldslam]

This:

there's a lot of people who don't remember the alpha days where there was no such thing as solo because shaman checkmated everything simply by existing

is why this wouldn't work:

I wouldn't mind if hp/4 was completely removed from the game.

Two years ago or so, there were DPS Shaman and AM EVERYWHERE and those who were there either dreadfully remember or chose not to. Without regen you are either out right dead or close to it when DoTs tick on you (try it out yourself), what are you going to do about them sitting on a highground with their 100ft range you can't quickly/easily reach? Try to run while dying or turn around so they kite you or simply outheal your dmg? Same thing happens with the newly buffed (and ridiculous) DPS Zealot and Magus. Issue is ultimately magical DoTs doing too much damage once geared AND the fact that only two classes have a reliable gapcloser so kiting classes dominate unless you somehow can get close (which you won't against a competent player). We used to have almost daily threads about begging to nerf Shaman/AM because they were such a menace - the only reason we don't have them anymore is because everyone quietly agrees that those, as well as Magus, are overtuned beyond words for solo but LUCKILY not many play them currently so the issue isn't as obvious and it's a lot easier to swallow only dying to them 1/10 times compared to 9/10. While Magus is universally agreed to have no counter but it's "okay" since they are so rare it's somehow acceptable .. imagine if more people ran around on def Magus, you'd see a thread every other day.

Ive said it many times and even in this post. Just make heal debuffs affect hp regen and its done, no need to even tweak the numbers..

What exactly would this achieve? I can't think of any class besides WE/WH, AM/Sham (xd), RP/Zeal (xd), DoK/WP, SH/SW who'd reliably run on-demand 50% healdebuff solo. None of those actually suffer against regen, it's mostly melee classes who have issues with it since they will always take dmg in return and do not have the luxury to kite or spec into an entirely different path to maaaaaaybe run into a regen opponent. I mean sure that might be a small benefit for certain classes however fixes absolutely nothing but rather leans more into the rock-paper-scissors of soloing.

[Stinksuit]

This:

there's a lot of people who don't remember the alpha days where there was no such thing as solo because shaman checkmated everything simply by existing

is why this wouldn't work:

I wouldn't mind if hp/4 was completely removed from the game.

Two years ago or so, there were DPS Shaman and AM EVERYWHERE and those who were there either dreadfully remember or chose not to. Without regen you are either out right dead or close to it when DoTs tick on you (try it out yourself), what are you going to do about them sitting on a highground with their 100ft range you can't quickly/easily reach? Try to run while dying or turn around so they kite you or simply outheal your dmg? Same thing happens with the newly buffed (and ridiculous) DPS Zealot and Magus. Issue is ultimately magical DoTs doing too much damage once geared AND the fact that only two classes have a reliable gapcloser so kiting classes dominate unless you somehow can get close (which you won't against a competent player). We used to have almost daily threads about begging to nerf Shaman/AM because they were such a menace - the only reason we don't have them anymore is because everyone quietly agrees that those, as well as Magus, are overtuned beyond words for solo but LUCKILY not many play them currently so the issue isn't as obvious and it's a lot easier to swallow only dying to them 1/10 times compared to 9/10. While Magus is universally agreed to have no counter but it's "okay" since they are so rare it's somehow acceptable .. imagine if more people ran around on def Magus, you'd see a thread every other day.

Ive said it many times and even in this post. Just make heal debuffs affect hp regen and its done, no need to even tweak the numbers..

What exactly would this achieve? I can't think of any class besides WE/WH, AM/Sham (xd), RP/Zeal (xd), DoK/WP, SH/SW who'd reliably run on-demand 50% healdebuff solo. None of those actually suffer against regen, it's mostly melee classes who have issues with it since they will always take dmg in return and do not have the luxury to kite or spec into an entirely different path to maaaaaaybe run into a regen opponent. I mean sure that might be a small benefit for certain classes however fixes absolutely nothing but rather leans more into the rock-paper-scissors of soloing.

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't. Also no zealot runs HD when soloing (xd). Mara would also benefit greatly from this kind of change. Would likely make mara one of the better solo classes since they would also heal from people's regen with their heal debuff.

Me personally I never understood the issue of soloing without regen.. People often complain that you just die to dots instantly if you dont run with regen, well thats odd because pretty much all of my friends and me solo without regen and we are doing just fine. Just makes me wonder how can we do it but others cant?

[tazdingo]

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't.

the ability to deal more than 125 damage per second

[Stinksuit]

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't.

the ability to deal more than 125 damage per second

If it was just that why do you think regen specs are so dominant?

[Shieldslam]

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't. Also no zealot runs HD when soloing (xd). Mara would also benefit greatly from this kind of change. Would likely make mara one of the better solo classes since they would also heal from people's regen with their heal debuff.

Me personally I never understood the issue of soloing without regen.. People often complain that you just die to dots instantly if you dont run with regen, well thats odd because pretty much all of my friends and me solo without regen and we are doing just fine. Just makes me wonder how can we do it but others cant?

Why wouldn't you run HD on Zealot when soloing? Because it's inconvenient? You have the option to, it's only 3 points in a path you skill into anyway. Mara could possibly take it too for the same cost but I'm really not comfortable with the thought of Mara sapping off someone elses regen because that simply creates another whole issue to worry about even if it's only 25% of the original value.

Firstly, you'd have to mention which classes you/your friends play and who they play against. I think we can agree that the average RoR player is beyond horrible, you can see countless people holding S and having no clue about what buttons to press all the time ingame or even in vids so obviously you can do pretty well without regen items because of the abysmally low average skilllevel. I'm not talking about those people. The issue arises when you have a decently competent player who decides to abuse a regen deftard build and all of a sudden you don't have a chance yourself IF you aren't a kiting class OR your damage is high enough to burst them quickly - assuming no regen on your side. Not that you can't run around without regen but rather that you -almost- autolose against those builds unless the previously mentioned conditions are met and not because they played so well or you ran into a counter class, simply because they decided to dump all the stats into defensives and regen so you are on a timer and every second passed makes a loss more likely for you. Let's take Chosen as an example: the class is a huge statcheck and can easily reach 75%+ parry with passive absorb/damage and healing through regen, how exciting does it feel to have someone completely ignore about half or your attacks while also healing 5% or so every 4 seconds? A class that baseline has close to no healing all of a sudden feels immortal in a 1v1 (if you're a melee), how do people not see the problem with that?

From my point of view this isn't even a debate at all really. There's nothing to argue about, it's just numbers. If AM/Shaman DoTs tick for ~250-300 dmg each x3 for 15s+ every 3s, you end up with around 4k damage taken, without any buffs/debuffs. Would be nice to have someone who actually plays those classes share the exact numbers but that's what I remember seeing in my combat log. That's in a 15s timeframe without anything else used. If you're not using regen how exactly will you come back from that? Assuming you're facing a player with some basic understanding of their class who won't just pewpewlazer while facetanking but actually kite and abuse DoTs+knockback/puddle/sustain. That's exactly my entire point, I'm not focusing on the regular solo experience of farming unprepared scrubs who're simply trying to get back to the blob but actual people prepared and willingly looking for solo fights.

If I unequip regen items and happen to run into a DoT class they absolutely annihilate my healthbar where as with regen items I can barely even feel them ticking. Regen itself is not the issue, it's a solution that creates another issue once it's paired with insanely high defenses and THAT's why I'm so heavily against it working the way it does right now. I think ultimately we just have different experiences and expectations: I expect to be able to at least have a realistic chance against most opponents I come across if I play well and find this autolose scenario to be the most boring thing imaginable. The effort should be more or less equal between both, if I have to rethink every button I press while a def WE effectively presses 4 buttons and outsustains me that's where the frustration starts.

[Stinksuit]

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't. Also no zealot runs HD when soloing (xd). Mara would also benefit greatly from this kind of change. Would likely make mara one of the better solo classes since they would also heal from people's regen with their heal debuff.

Me personally I never understood the issue of soloing without regen.. People often complain that you just die to dots instantly if you dont run with regen, well thats odd because pretty much all of my friends and me solo without regen and we are doing just fine. Just makes me wonder how can we do it but others cant?

Why wouldn't you run HD on Zealot when soloing? Because it's inconvenient? You have the option to, it's only 3 points in a path you skill into anyway. Mara could possibly take it too for the same cost but I'm really not comfortable with the thought of Mara sapping off someone elses regen because that simply creates another whole issue to worry about even if it's only 25% of the original value.

Firstly, you'd have to mention which classes you/your friends play and who they play against. I think we can agree that the average RoR player is beyond horrible, you can see countless people holding S and having no clue about what buttons to press all the time ingame or even in vids so obviously you can do pretty well without regen items because of the abysmally low average skilllevel. I'm not talking about those people. The issue arises when you have a decently competent player who decides to abuse a regen deftard build and all of a sudden you don't have a chance yourself IF you aren't a kiting class OR your damage is high enough to burst them quickly - assuming no regen on your side. Not that you can't run around without regen but rather that you -almost- autolose against those builds unless the previously mentioned conditions are met and not because they played so well or you ran into a counter class, simply because they decided to dump all the stats into defensives and regen so you are on a timer and every second passed makes a loss more likely for you. Let's take Chosen as an example: the class is a huge statcheck and can easily reach 75%+ parry with passive absorb/damage and healing through regen, how exciting does it feel to have someone completely ignore about half or your attacks while also healing 5% or so every 4 seconds? A class that baseline has close to no healing all of a sudden feels immortal in a 1v1 (if you're a melee), how do people not see the problem with that?

From my point of view this isn't even a debate at all really. There's nothing to argue about, it's just numbers. If AM/Shaman DoTs tick for ~250-300 dmg each x3 for 15s+ every 3s, you end up with around 4k damage taken, without any buffs/debuffs. Would be nice to have someone who actually plays those classes share the exact numbers but that's what I remember seeing in my combat log. That's in a 15s timeframe without anything else used. If you're not using regen how exactly will you come back from that? Assuming you're facing a player with some basic understanding of their class who won't just pewpewlazer while facetanking but actually kite and abuse DoTs+knockback/puddle/sustain. That's exactly my entire point, I'm not focusing on the regular solo experience of farming unprepared scrubs who're simply trying to get back to the blob but actual people prepared and willingly looking for solo fights.

If I unequip regen items and happen to run into a DoT class they absolutely annihilate my healthbar where as with regen items I can barely even feel them ticking. Regen itself is not the issue, it's a solution that creates another issue once it's paired with insanely high defenses and THAT's why I'm so heavily against it working the way it does right now. I think ultimately we just have different experiences and expectations: I expect to be able to at least have a realistic chance against most opponents I come across if I play well and find this autolose scenario to be the most boring thing imaginable. The effort should be more or less equal between both, if I have to rethink every button I press while a def WE effectively presses 4 buttons and outsustains me that's where the frustration starts.

Because heal debuff actually is a 11 point skill tactic into zealots left tree and also it got reworked into a "weaker" value hd because its aoe (my guess is you've been away from sometime or simply dont know zealots?) anyways.

Youre asking about the classes, well simply from my memory I think me and guildies who solo roam cover almost every class besides sorc/bw and bg. Myself I have mained zealot for something like 4 to 5 years by now and yes while "I main a filthy op dps zealot" I also mained it when it was, well let's just say not so op xD I also have marauder, squig herder, we, wh, asw and chosen (which I play with fo).

My dots usually hit anywhere from 400 to 900 per tick multiplied by 2 to 4 depending if im in range or not. Hence I keep saying that the regen alone wont save you from the op dot classes these days.

I am a bit confused about your post, it kinda seems you both support and are against regen? Maybe I misunderstood something.

[tazdingo]

It would make it so regen has a counter to it, which it currently doesn't.

the ability to deal more than 125 damage per second

If it was just that why do you think regen specs are so dominant?

i don't know for sure, I'm not a big solo player these days and haven't been for years. But I don't like how easily characters that are functionally 0 DPS can deal damage via procs and auras and such and it seems like that's the bigger problem to me. if they couldn't damage you then regardless of their regen you could just cut them down eventually with morales and such. but regen itself enables so many fun playstyles and off-specs that I'd hate to see it nerfed just for this. make it so that speccing for 0 dmg = 0 dmg instead and laugh them to death

[Stinksuit]

the ability to deal more than 125 damage per second

If it was just that why do you think regen specs are so dominant?

i don't know for sure, I'm not a big solo player these days and haven't been for years. But I don't like how easily characters that are functionally 0 DPS can deal damage via procs and auras and such and it seems like that's the bigger problem to me. if they couldn't damage you then regardless of their regen you could just cut them down eventually with morales and such. but regen itself enables to many fun playstyles and off-specs that I'd hate to see it nerfed just for this

I agree with you that it creates different playstyles 100% I just wish there was some other counter measures you can take against it than just try and out dmg the regen of a player who is full def stacked and has 3 absorbs or just flee the fight.

To me making HD affect it seems better "fix" than just simply removing or reducing the regen in general. The only thing that kinda seems op to me with that change is maras heal debuff (who knows maybe that gets changed in dps patch).

Then again regen (atleast imo) is mainly just "issue" with WE and maybe Chosen to some degree..

Iirc I already said it in this thread that to me its kinda w/e they decide to do or not do. Ill play the game regardless and do my own thing, ill adapt to the changes and likely say my oppinions aswell xD

[tomolyons]

This:

there's a lot of people who don't remember the alpha days where there was no such thing as solo because shaman checkmated everything simply by existing

is why this wouldn't work:

I wouldn't mind if hp/4 was completely removed from the game.

Two years ago or so, there were DPS Shaman and AM EVERYWHERE and those who were there either dreadfully remember or chose not to. Without regen you are either out right dead or close to it when DoTs tick on you (try it out yourself), what are you going to do about them sitting on a highground with their 100ft range you can't quickly/easily reach? Try to run while dying or turn around so they kite you or simply outheal your dmg? Same thing happens with the newly buffed (and ridiculous) DPS Zealot and Magus. Issue is ultimately magical DoTs doing too much damage once geared AND the fact that only two classes have a reliable gapcloser so kiting classes dominate unless you somehow can get close (which you won't against a competent player). We used to have almost daily threads about begging to nerf Shaman/AM because they were such a menace - the only reason we don't have them anymore is because everyone quietly agrees that those, as well as Magus, are overtuned beyond words for solo but LUCKILY not many play them currently so the issue isn't as obvious and it's a lot easier to swallow only dying to them 1/10 times compared to 9/10. While Magus is universally agreed to have no counter but it's "okay" since they are so rare it's somehow acceptable .. imagine if more people ran around on def Magus, you'd see a thread every other day.

Ive said it many times and even in this post. Just make heal debuffs affect hp regen and its done, no need to even tweak the numbers..

What exactly would this achieve? I can't think of any class besides WE/WH, AM/Sham (xd), RP/Zeal (xd), DoK/WP, SH/SW who'd reliably run on-demand 50% healdebuff solo. None of those actually suffer against regen, it's mostly melee classes who have issues with it since they will always take dmg in return and do not have the luxury to kite or spec into an entirely different path to maaaaaaybe run into a regen opponent. I mean sure that might be a small benefit for certain classes however fixes absolutely nothing but rather leans more into the rock-paper-scissors of soloing.

I've always said the biggest issue isn't just the kiting and damage. Its the fact they tank too much damage in melee. if AM and Shamans simply too my dmg in melee or even just a tactic where if their damage output is increased, they take more damage in melee. it would solve this problem.