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[Sorcerer] Shades of Death

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daniilpb
Posts: 591

[Sorcerer] Shades of Death

Post#1 » Mon May 07, 2018 8:42 pm

Identify the issue
Low overall damage and usefulness for 13pt ability.

Explain why it is an issue
Shades of Death is 13 pt ability in Path of Agony. Image
Its overall dps with 1080 intelligence varies from 210 on random non-premade targets to 630 on unguarded, unprepared pug targets.
Proofs:
Spoiler:
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It looks like a weak version of BW’s Funnel Power, which is 5pt ability, or Blurring Shock/Skull Thumper, which are core abilities with 100% up time. Requirement of 14 invested points is completely unjustified, especially when it is possible to afford this ability only at 70rr for working build
Spoiler:
There is no sense trading it for Swell of Gloom or Echo of Power because their damage is just higher.
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After all, sometimes ~300 amount of damage of 13 pt ability is hardly worth a gcd when you are performing your rotation, which is already delayed by 3 dots.
Usually you can't even get use of this skill because these silly 5 ticks with fluff damage expire faster than you start your rotation on focused target. Even core Frozen Touch buff is better for the purpose of constant pressure and support of your rotations.

Propose a viable solution to the problem:
  • Remove 5 ticks limitation. Cooldown can be increased to 15 seconds, add ICD of 0.5 second so only 2 ticks can happen in a second (~120 will be an average damage per second. Still looks a bit fluff but anyway). There still will be smaller number of ticks, which BS and ST have as simple core abilities (there are enough crits which are making these two abilities tick rapidly like waterfall of damage).
  • Allow it to crit. It would increase the damage of ticks making them noticeable. It would require certain management to apply this skill with a full mechanic and keep high value for the whole duration (clearly, won't be a problem).
Perfectly, these two should be enough to make the skill worthful.
But
There is an extra option if first two won't fix the problem:
  • Shades of Death will reduce disrupt chance by 10% for 10 seconds. Would just make it worth applying because of extra effect.
Last edited by daniilpb on Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death.

Post#2 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:57 pm

Open for discussion. Closes on the 15th of June.
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lefze
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#3 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:44 pm

Skill needs to crit for sure, the damage it puts out right now is just too low for it be valuable even as a core skill. If allowed to crit it would still hit for less than 300 damage, and that is perfectly okay with an ICD that limits the proc to twice per second per party.

That being said, I do believe that the increased CD you mention should be part of the tweak, and seeing as you would effectively extend the duration of the skill tenfold while also increasing the damage by 125%, scaling down the duration to 5 seconds might also be a good idea until the skill can be tested properly.

The tricky part of the proposal is that you want the skill to benefit the whole party, instead of augmenting the sorcs burst. And as such implementing all these relatively huge buffs when compared to the current state of the skill should be done with extreme caution. And you compare it to BS and ST, but in reality we would likely see Shades and ST on the same target, and at that point the procs will start to be felt extremely well.

I already mentioned to you that my preferred fix would be to allow it to crit, and to make it only proc off the sorcs own attacks which fixes all the issues the skill has today, and makes it extremely valuable to the sorc itself. Opposing views of course, and your proposal will for sure help some parties more, but still leaves the skill as undesireable for a lot of setups.
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Reesh
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#4 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:34 pm

Allow it to crit coupled with class mechanic, test it how the damage performs, if afterwards it performs well below average another solutions should be implemented - that's how i see it.
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lefze
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#5 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:05 pm

Reesh wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:34 pm
Allow it to crit coupled with class mechanic, test it how the damage performs, if afterwards it performs well below average another solutions should be implemented - that's how i see it.
Don't have to test it, just multiply the numbers in the screenshots by 2.25 and make a rough estimate of how often it will crit, you will get a pretty damn accurate idea of how it would work. Right now the 5 stacks get burned down at random by pug fluff, making the skill effectively last about 1 second in rvr, that combined with the extremely low damage makes it absolutely useless. Allowing it to crit alone won't solve consistency issues overall, it might be enough for isolated fights against premades though. But even there it probably won't make too much of an impact. The proposal aims to make it valuable in exactly these isolated fights, but ultimately a member of the team has to decide if the skill should augment the sorcs burst or become another partywide proc.
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daniilpb
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#6 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:59 pm

My aim is to make this skill not just another selfish tool but something that should benefit whole group.
During my 6v6+ sessions on sorc, quite often I was getting into the situation when I was completely useless: since sorc is stationary dps, once you get focused or LOS happen, your damage potential goes down to zero. You can’t support your team on the move, you can’t harm enemy healer (full wipe is almost impossible) and you cannot attack if enemy team goes for you.
Such rework of the skill should help sorc to make impact even it has to kite nonstop or can’t reach a target.
Also class lacks sustained type of damage. It’s not a secret that successful classes are balanced in terms of burst-sustain damage (it may have a bit more burst potential but still be able to apply some pressure and etc) - sorc currently stuck in burst only type of damage which is very unreliable if Gods of Random are cross with you (6 disrupts in a row is a real thing). So, such rework should also give sorc a bit of supportive-sustain damage.
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lefze
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#7 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:39 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:59 pm
My aim is to make this skill not just another selfish tool but something that should benefit whole group.
During my 6v6+ sessions on sorc, quite often I was getting into the situation when I was completely useless: since sorc is stationary dps, once you get focused or LOS happen, your damage potential goes down to zero. You can’t support your team on the move, you can’t harm enemy healer (full wipe is almost impossible) and you cannot attack if enemy team goes for you.
Such rework of the skill should help sorc to make impact even it has to kite nonstop or can’t reach a target.
Also class lacks sustained type of damage. It’s not a secret that successful classes are balanced in terms of burst-sustain damage (it may have a bit more burst potential but still be able to apply some pressure and etc) - sorc currently stuck in burst only type of damage which is very unreliable if Gods of Random are cross with you (6 disrupts in a row is a real thing). So, such rework should also give sorc a bit of supportive-sustain damage.
While I respect your view on the matter of not being able to do damage on the move, I have to disagree completely. chillwind-wop-vision are all castable on the move, simply skipping arctic allows you to kite till the dots are about to tick and only requires you to stand still for 1 second to cast gloomburst, and the end of the rotation is instas anyways. Now I do realize that in a 6v6 doombolts are required, but you can still most definetly put out some serious bursts on the move.

Sustained damage is of course a bit of a different matter, but I do think that sorc has quite okay sustained damage aswell, even though every second rotation is gimped.

So again, I do kind of get where you are coming from with the whole benefit the party angle, but I still see no reason to do that, when the obvious, and simpler fix of making it more selfish fixes the problems of both worse rotations on the move and helps sustained damage. 3-4 crit ticks of shades in one time stamp is no joke, and while it doesn't quite make up for loosing arctic while kiting for example, it's still quite significant.

But regardless of how it would end up working, I would very much like for it to proc even if the spell that was about to trigger it was disrupted. I don't personally think the sorc really suffers that severely against healers, as while assisting even a few succesful hits has a huge impact, but allowing shades procs through disrupt will give sorc a bit of a nudge forward provided the proc hits for a significant enough amount.

Edit: Just to clarify on the last bit, I mean literally only disrupts, not for it to proc through any avoidance.
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daniilpb
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#8 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:01 pm

lefze wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:39 pm
While I respect your view on the matter of not being able to do damage on the move, I have to disagree completely. chillwind-wop-vision are all castable on the move, simply skipping arctic allows you to kite till the dots are about to tick and only requires you to stand still for 1 second to cast gloomburst, and the end of the rotation is instas anyways. Now I do realize that in a 6v6 doombolts are required, but you can still most definetly put out some serious bursts on the move.

Sustained damage is of course a bit of a different matter, but I do think that sorc has quite okay sustained damage aswell, even though every second rotation is gimped.
I do agree that you can pull off some quick burst while moving but here comes the question: is it any effective? Not counting dots, 2-3 skills in my rotation still can be disrupted even if I get disrupt strike through from every possible item with soft cap intelligence (damage score board usually looks quite frustrating no matter how hard you mash your buttons. Sure, it can’t be considered as a real indicator of something but still).
Also you should consider that you will be a target number one once WL gets its M1 or SM - its M2. Hell, everyone will rush you even with simple CHCH. We have no Resolut Defense, no snare breakers besides M2 and no escape tools except Flee so they will reach you eventually. Once enemy team decide to try you out, most likely you won’t deal any significant damage until you reach guards - that’s a sad fact.
Usually after typical full rotation it’s possible to get target’s heal to 30-40%, after that you have to wait for cooldowns. It gives enough time for healers to get health back to safe amount. Then you have to repeat ending up with the same result. Imo this window should be covered with something. Not with more burst abilities but maybe with something sustainable (you can hardly rely on dots in that case).
Also, on a side note, once your first fight is finished, second one against same people most likely will be the best one you’ve ever had because enemies will toss some points into disrupt and this is where the real fun begins...
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dansari
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#9 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:35 pm

Devil's advocate: is this an issue that persists in orvr as well? To be sure, ranged is not a great DPS class to bring in small scale. If the ability is underperforming that's one thing but if it's just underperforming in small scale I think that's different
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daniilpb
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Re: [Sorcerer] Shades of Death. [Close Date: 15th June]

Post#10 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:02 pm

dansari wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:35 pm
Devil's advocate: is this an issue that persists in orvr as well? To be sure, ranged is not a great DPS class to bring in small scale. If the ability is underperforming that's one thing but if it's just underperforming in small scale I think that's different
ORvR is a place for AOE sorc. I don’t think ST can be any better when you can just zerg everything and burn without even targeting. As I already mentioned in the proposal that skill is not worth learning or requires high RR build (just because why not get it if you have extra points) so no matter in what environment you would use it - it’s still luckluster. Also my screens were made in PUG environment so numbers won’t differ in Siege, Sc or ORvR which is PUG ORvR most likely (again organized RvR is about AOE)(6vUnorganized crowd is PUG environment I believe). Back to organized small scale - numbers will be even lower than I showed.
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<FusionII>
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