Return of Reckoning

Problem: Current BW heal debuff has a 10s up time and 30s c/d, a 66%/20s downtime, out of line from every other specced 50% heal debuff.
Reasoning: 1) the 30 second cooldown lines up with most immunity timers, making it that gaining traction can just be CC'd off
2) unable to apply pressure vs detaunts, which have a 100% uptime
3) Any kill attempt lasting longer than the 10s uptime causes a 20 second reset period, giving targets too much of a recovery chance to be effective.
Follow-on problems: Heal debuffs are a must in scenario play against any organized group. With the BWs being ineffective due to only a 33% uptime vs 100% on other classes, it limits order DPS compositions. For "core" dps classes, current classes that have a 100% uptime 50% heal debuff are:
Order: Slayer, WH, SW
Destro: Choppa, Mara, WE, SH.

Recommended solution: reduce the BW's heal debuff to 10seconds, like all other 50% heal debuffs.

Brennika wrote: Sun Nov 23, 2025 2:06 pm Problem: Current BW heal debuff has a 10s up time and 30s c/d, a 66%/20s downtime, out of line from every other specced 50% heal debuff.
Reasoning: 1) the 30 second cooldown lines up with most immunity timers, making it that gaining traction can just be CC'd off
2) unable to apply pressure vs detaunts, which have a 100% uptime
3) Any kill attempt lasting longer than the 10s uptime causes a 20 second reset period, giving targets too much of a recovery chance to be effective.
Follow-on problems: Heal debuffs are a must in scenario play against any organized group. With the BWs being ineffective due to only a 33% uptime vs 100% on other classes, it limits order DPS compositions. For "core" dps classes, current classes that have a 100% uptime 50% heal debuff are:
Order: Slayer, WH, SW
Destro: Choppa, Mara, WE, SH.

Recommended solution: reduce the BW's heal debuff to 10seconds, like all other 50% heal debuffs.

And don't forget to reduce its range to 65ft because devs are sure that being available to the pull (and quite close to the melee is a must for rdps healing debuff; too close, in fact...)

Unless you are SH, of course, its totally okay for SH to have an option to apply healing debuff from safe distance.

That 30 sec thing indeed looks weird in age of disrupts. But on other hand sork dont have even that.

Anything that help magic casters is good at current game state but how about sorc?
Sorc don’t have hd at all.

The fact that DoK and WP have %100 uptime, or better %50 heal debuff is wild. Absolutely insane.

Sever1n wrote: Sun Nov 23, 2025 5:58 pm That 30 sec thing indeed looks weird in age of disrupts. But on other hand sork dont have even that.

Alubert wrote: Sun Nov 23, 2025 6:46 pm Anything that help magic casters is good at current game state but how about sorc?
Sorc don’t have hd at all.

Sorc having access to a HD exists outside the scope of my reasoning, and is a separate issue worthy of its own topic/forum post. The point I was raising was from a faction-balance issue, specifically when it comes to viable group composition in scenarios (2-2-2). On paper, both realms with their core dps classes have access to four heal debuffs each. Order has BW, SW, WH, and SL; Destro has Choppa, Mara, WE, and SH. Equally balanced *Insert cliche Thanos meme here.* I'm assuming that the Dev's are rational actors here, and that this is by design. So the reason why the sorc doesn't have a HD has to do with why the Mara does, and the WL doesn't.

*Deep breath*

Back to the original point, the BW's HD functions significantly worse compared to the other 7 available HDs. To the point that it's non-functional. This limits what class compositions you can bring into scenario play. Out of the 21 possible dps compositions available on order (assuming 2-2-2), 29% (6) don't have access to a functional HD. On destro, 14% (3) of compositions don't have access to a functional HD (Sorc-Sorc; Sorc-Magus; Magus-Magus). This is the imbalance I am trying to highlight, and the reasoning is meant to be class-agnostic/purely numbers-based.

*In conclusion*

Which classes having the HD and which don't is irrelevant to the above reasoning, just the amount of classes on each faction.

I want to emphasize, I'm not arguing for or against the Sorc having it, but that giving it to the Sorc would throw the balance off again (5 vs 4). If the Sorc were to gain a HD, and to maintain balance, either an order class would have to gain a HD, or a destro class would have to lose one. That's a completely different topic that is definitely worth its own discussion.

If someone who is much better at words than I am could TL/DR this, I'd appreciate it!

Fey wrote: Mon Nov 24, 2025 7:10 am The fact that DoK and WP have %100 uptime, or better %50 heal debuff is wild. Absolutely insane.

Definitely a matter of opinion, but at least its faction-balanced.

BW or Sorc don't need up time HD - this doesn't factor into the archetype at all—in a ST build, considering 1,5s GCD , you don't even have much time to integrate it into the rotation you're aiming for.

The current mechanics (still from live) are designed to force the enemy to take actions that favor you when attempting a rotation—giving up an important save (for example a detaunt, spending a GCD on a cleans, force a choppa/slayer to drop rage, getting the enemy to LOS and reducing pressure on your teammates, or even starting to push, etc.) and doing it in the shortest possible time, about 7 seconds (a long time) of preparation, followed by massive damage in the next 3 seconds, taking into account the rotation you've planned to use at that moment. Simply put, you're a heavy burst nuker with a long (approximately 13(ok, 10 - taking into account the burst itself) seconds) damage downtime. In this concept (long preparation, short time to deal high amounts of damage with a large window), uptime HD is unnecessary because it doesn't really complement you.

And yes, there are already rdpss with uptime HD – these are SH/SW, who are tunnel dps (I'm not counting Fester) with high tenacity and utility, and uptime HD complements them well.

BW/Sorcerer need the opportunity to convert their damage, and this damage should be high enough to cover their weaknesses, and uptime HD won't help here at all. The only positive is that BW will be able to play WL's setup 2 2 2(It will still be weaker than other similar setups), who is currently the best DPS on the order side.

BW's current HD is a relic of the past, when reflect damage from multiple HDs stacked and the healer killed by itself while trying to heal the target affected by "Playing with Fire". A lot of things like that u can see in Sorcs trees - the most striking example is "Gloom of Night", which once upon a time was soft SL's ID analog.

Gloom is actually still good. Tricky to use tnx to 2 sec cast, but somethimes can do interesting thing's. Think in curent state its equal to playing with fire, but if order will get 10 sec cd long range hd destro should have mirror, its just too valuable.

Sever1n wrote: Mon Nov 24, 2025 2:19 pm Gloom is actually still good. Tricky to use tnx to 2 sec cast, but somethimes can do interesting thing's. Think in curent state its equal to playing with fire, but if order will get 10 sec cd long range hd destro should have mirror, its just too valuable.

The example was given because the ability looks "vestigial" on this character, as if it was previously for something else/more powerful, not like something useless - range BW's HD also not absolute useless ability, but its also not good(although it would seem that this is 50% inc HD),for a number of reasons, some of which I described above - and main of this reasons are "out-dated" and "wrong character". Gloom of Night in current state will be not bad ability for the path of destruction.
Des already have 1 extra HD - marauder's hd.

Magusar wrote: Mon Nov 24, 2025 12:16 pm BW or Sorc don't need up time HD - this doesn't factor into the archetype at all—in a ST build, considering 1,5s GCD , you don't even have much time to integrate it into the rotation you're aiming for.

The current mechanics (still from live) are designed to force the enemy to take actions that favor you when attempting a rotation—giving up an important save (for example a detaunt, spending a GCD on a cleans, force a choppa/slayer to drop rage, getting the enemy to LOS and reducing pressure on your teammates, or even starting to push, etc.) and doing it in the shortest possible time, about 7 seconds (a long time) of preparation, followed by massive damage in the next 3 seconds, taking into account the rotation you've planned to use at that moment. Simply put, you're a heavy burst nuker with a long (approximately 13(ok, 10 - taking into account the burst itself) seconds) damage downtime. In this concept (long preparation, short time to deal high amounts of damage with a large window), uptime HD is unnecessary because it doesn't really complement you.

And yes, there are already rdpss with uptime HD – these are SH/SW, who are tunnel dps (I'm not counting Fester) with high tenacity and utility, and uptime HD complements them well.

BW/Sorcerer need the opportunity to convert their damage, and this damage should be high enough to cover their weaknesses, and uptime HD won't help here at all. The only positive is that BW will be able to play WL's setup 2 2 2(It will still be weaker than other similar setups), who is currently the best DPS on the order side.

BW's current HD is a relic of the past, when reflect damage from multiple HDs stacked and the healer killed by itself while trying to heal the target affected by "Playing with Fire". A lot of things like that u can see in Sorcs trees - the most striking example is "Gloom of Night", which once upon a time was soft SL's ID analog.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to agree with you 100% here from a class-specific point of view. The BW, in its current state, might not need the HD, and it might be vestigial from a previous era, but the faction as a whole still needs a 4th. Why let perfect be the enemy of good? The BWs HD is already in the tree. It'd be a simple change and would close a scenario imbalance with minimal impact on open RvR/WB play.

Regardless of whether or not the BW (and Sorc) have or don't have a HD, I hope that the upcoming dps rework takes the number of HDs per faction into account.