Return of Reckoning

Like the title says, this thread will discuss balance related to race specific tactics. I actually think this is an interesting discussion topic because comparisons can be drawn more strictly on efficacy rather than by class archetype or faction. Both factions have some races with tactics that perform very well and can see use in many viable builds -- other races have tactics that are 100% unusable in relation to other class specific tactics available.

For this thread I am going to disregard tactics that use resists as all races have at least one tactic that buffs a certain resistance, and I think that can be addressed separately as I think most people would agree these are unusable. To begin with lets list each race's unique tactics:

Dark Elves:

Dark Blessings - Direct heals on you recover 10% more health

Bathing In Blood - Any time you kill an enemy you will regain 471 health over 9 seconds

Greenskins:

Choppa / Black Orc:

Im Da Biggest! - Increases your wounds by 160

Stab You Gooder - Increases your critical hit damage by 25%

Squig Herder / Shaman

Whazat Behind You?! - Any time you are hit, there is a 25% chance that you will detaunt the enemy, making them hate you less and causing them to deal 75% damage to you for 5s.

RUN AWAY! - Any time you are hit, there is a 25% chance that your movement speed will be increased by 30% for 5 seconds. This can only trigger once every 10 seconds

Chaos:

Warped Flesh - Any time you are attacked, there is a 25% chance that you will absorb up to 375 damage. This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds

Backlash - Any time you are attacked, there is a 25% chance that you will lash out for 370 elemental damage over 5 seconds to anyone who hits you


High Elves:

Centuries of Training - Upon striking a target with direct damage there is a 25% chance to inflict an additional 303 Spirit damage over 3 seconds

Discerning Offense - Your attacks have a 10% reduced chance to be defended against

Empire:

Emperor's Ward - Any time you are attacked, there is a 25% chance that you will absorb up to 375 damage. This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds

Sigmar's Favor - Any time that you are healed by a direct heal, there is a 25% chance that you will regain an additional 135 hit points as well

Dwarves:

Stoutness of Stone - Increases Toughness by 80. You also recover from Stuns, Staggers and Knockdowns 1 second quicker. You will still gain immunity based on the original duration

Ancestral Inheritance - Increases your Armor by 660


Without much explanation it is pretty clear that some of the tactics above greatly outperform others. Noteworthy S tier racial tactics belonging to Dwarves, High Elves and Greenskins (just about all of these are usable if not commonly used?). Armor, hit chance, crit damage and wounds all scale incredibly well.

On the other hand you have races like Dark Elves who's racial tactics are in many cases unusable. At no point would I ever slot Bathing In Blood to heal for less than 500 hp over NINE seconds. For context, you are able to equip a chest piece now that can heal 180 hp every 4 seconds, which is only 111 hp less per 9s than a TACTIC. This will not save you, this is not helpful in pve. I see some folks use this for levelling and would just like to inform you that you will kill enemies faster and have more health left over by just using a real tactic.

Dark blessings giving 10% incoming healing is useful in some cases for bg tanking in pve, but I would argue in literally every other scenario another tactic can out perform this. If the game is balanced for pvp I dont think this is good enough.

Empire's Sigmar's Favor is equally useless and I think tied for the worst tactic in the entire game with Bathing In Blood. 25% chance on DIRECT heal is hot garbage. For context.. a player can cast approximately 13 instant cast abilities in 20s, if a rp used these 20s to spam instant heals on you -- 25% of those heals would result in approximately 438 health netted from this tactic. If you combine this with how multiple healers might be able to proc this on you at once I guess you could convince me that it is not worse than bathing in blood, but I would bet that it has some kind of internal cooldown. Again, garbage.

I am of the opinion that there doesn't need to be a complex solution to some of these disparities, and maybe more discussion needs to be had on this. But I think if we take emperor's ward and warped flesh as an example -- these are moderately powerful tactics and can be used by a number of classes to a decent level of effectiveness.

A suggestion I would like to make is to mirror the Centuries of Training high elves tactic to dark elves to match the mirroring between empire and chaos. Thematically and balance wise I think this makes sense and would be fair?

Would make a suggestion for sharing a tactic between dwarves and greenskins, but their tactics are all awesome and I don't think need changing.

Would like to see some of the less frequently (if ever) used tactics be revised and brought up to a baseline that compares to some of the stronger racial tactics I mentioned above. I think racial tactics add some nice flavor to the game, and they create a lot more flexibility in terms of what builds are actually viable to each class just by not having to spec into them. I don't think any racial tactics are over performing (other than discerning offense), but I'd just like to see others be brought up to at least be able to be slotted in some builds.

Tactics need general rework cause 90% are useless. This is just another grass is greener. I think all my 4 lvl 40 (43-82) dark elfs have 4 career-tactics slotted exept +160 one cause they outperform all by far including mirror, enemy race and archetype.
But this is well known, so they could just delete most of them, leave the rest of them untouched and invest time in new Tome-Tactics giving benefits vs single races like greenskins vs dwarfs.

Yes there are many useless tactics, however this far extend beyond racial tactics ( why limit yourself to only those?).

Dark elf as the example have trash tier racials indeed, but they get some of the best tactics anyways, i.e witch elf sacrifices rewarded is likely the single strongest tactic in the entire game.

Farrul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:49 am i.e witch elf sacrifices rewarded is likely the single strongest tactic in the entire game.

More of your "destro is OP, my WL which can kill any cloth wearer in a kd is just fine" posts I guess?

Sacrifices Rewarded requires being critically hit, meaning no FS if you want the tactic to actually proc. More so, if WE parries/dodges a hit, no crit as well, meaning having more parry actually makes Sacrifices Rewarded protect for less.

That is while empire/chaos have absorb tactics which triggers on being attacked- not only they can use FS just fine for less being crit, but even if a hit got parried, it can still trigger the absorb.

So the usual, either you have no idea about game mechanics, or intentionally lie to try and get the tactic nerfed.

They don't even play ror anymore and you want a balance. Move on bro.

Zxul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:06 pm

Farrul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:49 am i.e witch elf sacrifices rewarded is likely the single strongest tactic in the entire game.

More of your "destro is OP, my WL which can kill any cloth wearer in a kd is just fine" posts I guess?

More so, if WE parries/dodges a hit, no crit as well, meaning having more parry actually makes Sacrifices Rewarded protect for less.

That is while empire/chaos have absorb tactics which triggers on being attacked- not only they can use FS just fine for less being crit, but even if a hit got parried, it can still trigger the absorb.

So the usual, either you have no idea about game mechanics, or intentionally lie to try and get the tactic nerfed.

This is l2p issue for you and hence why you complain and create posts not in touch with the reality of the game, it is not about class balance since all the top tier Destro classes defeats WL 1vs1. I guess an entire thread were you are disproved was not enough for you?

As for sacrifice rewarded it is a no brainer, 600 absorb per crit every 3 sec is extremely powerful, i can't think of a single stronger tactic.

Zxul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:06 pm Sacrifices Rewarded requires being critically hit, meaning no FS if you want the tactic to actually proc.

Here you reveal that either you do not understand how stats in this game interact, or you are lying to yourself, why?

Let's take a WL, a bis one can have 40-42% crit chance, even with futile strike IV(4) you'll be somewhere around - 14-16 chance to be crited. So let's subtract 15 crit from 40 and you end up with a 25% chance to be crited. This is enough to keep the tactic constantly proccing. But all you need is futile Strike III to be effective at reducing crit chance, so more likely it will be a 33% chance to be crited.

There you go, full crit reduction like a normal toon and sacrifice rewarded just still being awesome.

Now will you finally concede? This is simple logic to understand.

Farrul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 1:53 pm This is l2p issue for you and hence why you complain and create posts not in touch with the reality of the game, it is not about class balance since all the top tier Destro classes defeats WL 1vs1. I guess an entire thread were you are disproved was not enough for you?

As for sacrifice rewarded it is a no brainer, 600 absorb per crit every 3 sec is extremely powerful, i can't think of a single stronger tactic.

So considering you yourself posted not that long ago that your WL can kill most WEs in a kd, it leaves us with two options- either WE is far away from "top tier Destro classes"- in which case Sacrifices Rewarded isn't all that strong, or WE would be in the "top tier Destro classes". Meaning, you lie as usual.

Or you can't actually kill most WEs in a kd. Meaning, you lie as usual.

So which option out of the two it is?

Also, the fact that you can't think of a stronger tactic, indeed sums up what you actually know about tactics.

Farrul wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2024 1:53 pm Here you reveal that either you do not understand how stats in this game interact, or you are lying to yourself, why?

Let's take a WL, a bis one can have 40-42% crit chance, even with futile strike IV(4) you'll be somewhere around - 14-16 chance to be crited. So let's subtract 15 crit from 40 and you end up with a 25% chance to be crited. This is enough to keep the tactic constantly proccing. But all you need is futile Strike III to be effective at reducing crit chance, so more likely it will be a 33% chance to be crited.

There you go, full crit reduction like a normal toon and sacrifice rewarded just still being awesome.

Now will you finally concede? This is simple logic to understand.

Since you also suck at math, here is what you have missed. In 3 sec WL can hit with 2 abilities, and 1 aa (most 2h have 3 sec or slower speed, unless specifically specced for aa haste). Meaning, at most 3 possible crits.

Here, however, is the thing.

1. WE has a lot of init on armor, + init kiss. Assuming +80 or so kiss, WE will be in a 400 init area= -20% to be crit from init, or 5% to be crit after base chance to be crit. Add FS4, and its -19% to be crit, on a WE without any special investment into init. On a WE with init investment, it will be more than that. Meaning, taking your 40-42% to crit WL, 21-23% to crit per hit.

2. More importantly, WE is likely to have some parry- 10% from dual wield which is fixed per patch notes, 12% from 400 init, likely at least 5% or so from armor, and if the WE invested into rr parry another 18%, total 45%, 10% more if WE uses the parry tactic. Lets assume WE without the tactic, and WL without the 10% strikethrough tactic. After 10% from str and 10% from 2h, WE will still have 25% parry.

Now guess what, if the hit got parried, it can't crit. Now take those 3 hits over 3 sec= 63- 69% total chance to trigger Sacrifices Rewarded, subtract what got parried, subtract things like say WE parry m1- no hits= no absorb, while emp/chaos absorb would still work fine. And WE is lucky if Sacrifices Rewarded got triggered once in 6 sec. While emf/chaos absorb which triggers from being attacked, will trigger from anything, no matter if not critted or parried.

Now, the thing is, this calculation is vs bis glass cannon WL with 40-42% crit, guess what happens is the same WE is attacked by someone with say 25-30% crit. Yep, suddenly Sacrifices Rewarded is lucky to proc once in 10 sec- while emp/chaos tactics would still proc just fine.

Basically, the only possibility where Sacrifices Rewarded will trigger every 3 sec, is if a solo WE is attacked by 2 opponents, each having 40-42% crit- in which case WE dies, or the opponents should reroll. Or if say your bugged nonworking slow pet suddenly starts to crit as much as bis glass cannon WL does- tell if so, more reasons to nerf WL.