Bringing tanks in line: BG The Exception

[what63]

ST Punt is a core tank ability like Guard and should be unified among all the classes.

Not really. And the attempt at making it so is making the tanks far less diverse and the game overall less fun. Tanks should fill slightly different roles and offer different gameplay from eachother just like other archetypes.

[Paxsanarion]

IB need 25 grudge to punt, why is that a struggle with a proper oath friend? I have never understood this but its a common opinion.

Could you elaborate on why its easier to generate hate over grudge?

Back to BG. 6v6s don't generally happen over objectives. I've rarely done a serious 6v6 around real terrain obstacles, but maybe thats my lack of experience.

The IC sc is the obvious culprit, but most scs have punt hazards and they come from being punted to a lower level. BG has enough vertical to clear out the midpoint on wall of ekrund. That is basically a standard for the vertical imo.

Chosen/KotBS do have more vertical, but they also have identical punts.

Chosen will be in group with BG. So either chosen punts tank1 and BG knocks down tank2. Or the other way around. Both choices are unbalanced because of BG.

Offensive and defensive abilities scale with Grudge, like hate, but it's more extreme for IB - there are more skills for IB that ramp, and they are very dependent on the ramp. 25 Grudge at the start of a fight is a lot, you can't come on and "just punt" - imagine if Exile cost 25/30 hatred to use. You'd have to use Enraged Beating first so you can use it, and then the follow-up consequences of lessening your skill efficiency being pushed down a bracket.

Currently Ironbreaker Grudge is tied to GCD, so if your Oathfriend is being hit, it's from 4.5 to 7.5 seconds to generate the grudge from just oathfriend. That applies for every IB buff too - there's a lot of contest for Grudge in the early stages of a fight, it takes around 20-30 seconds to having the rotation going at full capability. With how TTK is atm, fights can be over and done by then, or key windows are missed etc. It just lends itself to clunkiness.

As for Hate vs Grudge generation - it's the difference between active and passive generation. Hate is active - you choose to do things; use skills, hit people, etc, to gain it. You can use Enraged Beating (as 2h) to help improve management - have a spender or scaler? Beating in the rotation to smooth it out.

Grudge is very passive; your opponent has to do something, and then you get it. You don't have any direct control over how you generate your class resource; there is no real gameplay engagement. You can stand in front of someone, and they can choose to not hit you - then what do you do?

You'll often hear people say "Rising Anger" or "Dwarven Riposte" but a tactic shouldn't be necessary to make the core mechanic of a class playable or usefully functional. Dwarven Riposte is a bit of a bogeyman - it was used in the past by balance team members to say "Grudge is fine because Dwarven Riposte exists", which is wild; I don't know how an overperforming tactic is a suitable bandaid a weak core mechanic.

I truly hope IB Grudge issue can be fixed, its the class mechanic and its not working at the moment as intended. Should not be tied to GCD in my opinion.

[Alubert]

IB ST punt 10 sec cd snb or 2h spec. He is the only tank with 10 sec cd on punt with snb spec.
Its big advantage. Im using 2h on all my tanks only for cd ST punt.
IB is a winner.

[Paxsanarion]

IB ST punt 10 sec cd snb or 2h spec. He is the only tank with 10 sec cd on punt with snb spec.
Its big advantage. Im using 2h on all my tanks only for cd ST punt.
IB is a winner.

Sorry, but I disagree. IB is currently grudge starved.....badly. Punting requires grudge. Try playing IB for yourself and see

[Bozzax]

Making CD on snb longer is actually one of the worst changes to WAR/ROR history mind blowing really to cripple support classes ability to perform fundamentals

Intention … obscure

Out come: fewer tanks that are able to perform basics and fewer ppl that play tank (support)

Now with 2h strike through just

Bazinga!!!!

[Kylashandra]

Sure, BG punt is a powerful tool but you have to build alot of Hate to be able to use it efficiently while a Chosen or KoTBS with the tactic slotted has an insta punt possibly more annoying than BG (slower travel speed, higher Z axis). Which means a Chosen / KoTBS can insta punt as efficiently if not better than a BG at the very start of any fight while BG should spend a few seconds building.
BG punt has always been around and is fine as it is.

[Martok]

ST Punt is a core tank ability like Guard and should be unified among all the classes.

Except that no such change will ever occur, as to do so would be seen as a 'destruction' of the unique nature of a particular class in favor of molding a homogeneous front.

Oh, wait...

[nAyu]

I just dont understand why the BG punt is so called "op" here.
Many things are conditional (hatred thresholds) on that class. Debuffs, punt range, buffs.
YES the punt is long range WHEN you manage to get 90 hate plus. Otherwise is the worst of all classes. But what do you actually need to do first? get hatred >90.
Thats sometimes impossible even with enraged beating (which needs to crit to generate a reasonable amout of hatred - looking at you crit immunity)
In between there is Pitiless strike (20 hatred) debuff to reduce toughness, crimson death (30 hatred) 10% incoming crit, furious howl (30 hatred) 10% reduced parry and block debuff.

So at least in my playstyle, i need a minimum of 170 hatred BEFORE i even can try to punt someone, because i think these debuffs are more valeuable to the party.
Then I need good positioning and the puntable target need a bad position (thanks Tazdingo for the illustration!) AND doesnt have to be "immunitied" by a random Sorc root or BO punt before(which like always happen in SCs and/or Orvr.
And even then there a good chance my punt is getting parried or blocked.

Yes, that is MY playstyle, yours might differ, if you just funnel everything into a first punt or maybe you feels like it when you're an order player!

[Culexus]

Change the BO/SM/CH/KotBS "punts" to work without having to slot the punt tactic. No ability should require a tactic to make it useable.

Change BO/SM punt to no longer require a stance. CC shouldn't be tied to the stance mechanic, especially to the Gud plan/Improved balance stance that provides no benefit.

Make the IB work on grudges built rather than spending grudges like the BG punt. Either mirror them, or have the IB require fewer grudges built for the top end bracket of punt that is longer ranged than standard, but not as far as the BG.

[geezereur]

Lets remove anything unique about the classes and make everything the same aka boring.