CyunUnderis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:17 am
Arcing Swing + Overpowering Swing from Knight is the equivalent for the Order. But Deeply Impaled from the Marauder is not mirrored.
Knew I was missing something
. Ty for correcting me.
My point then should be even more relevant since Deeply Impaled must be applied as ST. Meaning that the differences between the factions' melee blobs, debuff-wise, should be minor. Compared to the differences in available party-buffs (WOU, -crit dmg%, +healing%)
GONDOR wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 am
If you are going to use ID with WW as an example, then you should also use Cleanse with FotWK. They are both zero CD and subsequently become a 1:1 GCD trade. More slayers in an example? More healers. It's all 2/2/2.
CyunUnderis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:17 am
I don't think the example you took is good (especially in 24 vs 24 or Zerg vs Zerg - might be more real in 6 vs 6 or 12 vs 12). The greater the mass, the weaker the combo Clean + CD reducer is compared to the combo ID + CD reducer because, like you say, there is a lot of debuffs (including DoT), so ID will naturally be covered, even if the Slayers don't do it themselves.
Even ignoring the other debuffs that may be placed alongside ID, like Cyun mentions, proposing that For The Witch King (FTWK, Destro CD reducer) can be used to counter ID is a completely wrong mentality imo, and does the argument for ID no favours. Let me explain:
I demonstrated in my previous comment how ID can quickly get out of hand when purposely stacked. If FTWK+Cleanses is the intended counter to it then, in my opinion, it is a game design mistake:
For Order to successfully perform the offense it just requires Slayers in the same party paired with a WW SM. You could have 2 parties in a wb for example with the same strategy.
For Destro to successfully perform the counter-defence it requires a FTWK bg in
EVERY party that may be attacked by the enemy blob.
As a result:
1. It limits Destro's warband class options (by practically enforcing a Chosen+ FTWK Bg duo for Meta comps)
2. It promotes defensive use of FTWK (save it for when the ID train starts) vs free use of WW for Order (use it whenever you want to apply pressure)
3. It may even promote a similar class diversity issue on Order, where Kotbs + WW SM are stacked with Slayers in every party.
On the other hand, while Furious Stomping can't be disenchanted by certain classes (like IBs as was mentioned) you don't need to have 1 disenchanting class in every party; as long as there are sufficient tanks near the backline that can disenchant Choppas (For example 4 Kotbs, 1 from every party, especially if using the Destroy Enchantment tactic) the issue shouldn't require a change in Order party composition.
To summarize:
- Having to change party/warband composition to a great degree to counter just a single ability is bad game design and should be avoided at any cost.
- Having to change faction-wide class builds to a great degree to counter just a single ability is an even worse game design (and the reason I'm glad old Rampage got rightfully changed)
While I didn't want to detract from the original topic, I believe many of the things we have discussed here are also relevant to possible balancing of other issues, like for the CC discussion. For that reason I decided to keep the conversation going. I hope neither the Author of the post or the people reading it mind this (imo needed) detour.