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Xameleon
Posts: 19

Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#1 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:31 pm

Hi.

Not long time ago I saw a great post from CyunUnderis about proc meta. He made reasonable propositions, based on his point of view, and I thought "Hey, I have something to say too". It's not going to be about procs though. I want to discuss AoE crowd control abilities from healer's point of view.
I made a little paper, containing my thoughts on overall realm balance in massive fights from healer's perspective. I made it it English, Russian and French for you to enjoy. I hope it will spark some discussion and looking forward to learn what people think about my propositions.

English
Spoiler:

Introduction


I would like to make a small balance proposal for our beloved game. I do not know how feasible the changes I propose are for implementation within the game client, however, even if what I suggest cannot be created, I hope the developers will listen to the general message regarding the balance of abilities of various classes from a game design perspective.

First, let me tell you a little about myself so that you understand my bias. I have an AM, DoK, RP at 80RR or higher. WP and Sham are leveled at 60RR or higher, as well as WL at 77 and KotBS at 70. Most of the time, I've spent playing healers on the Order side, so most of my knowledge in the game comes from this position. I also want to note that my favorite pastime in the game was participating in massive RvR activities in RvR zones. Although 6v6 and 12v12 scenarios are an important part of the game, my suggestions will be more focused on massive RvR battles (24v24, 100v100).

Positioning


The most effective strategy for defeating the enemy in massive battles is to concentrate AoE damage in a small area where a large number of enemies have gathered. The most convenient, effective, and reliable method of concentrating AoE damage in the game is melee blobbing, which means gathering a multitude of close combat characters who deal colossal amounts of damage around themselves.

If an enemy stands in the path of such a melee blob, their death is almost guaranteed. Only with tremendous efforts from many players is it possible to save a character who finds themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, sacrificing a multitude of resources, their positioning, and more. The amount of effort required to form and manage a melee blob is quite low, while the amount of effort required to rescue characters caught in the melee blob's area of influence is extremely high. Thus, the best survival strategy is to avoid getting caught in the melee blob while simultaneously attacking the enemy with your own melee blob.

It becomes a game of "who makes the first mistake," and the decisive influence on this confrontation is the players' ability to position themselves. Those who choose their position well win, while those who choose poorly fall victim to the melee blob and die. Thus, I conclude that one of the most important skills for a player in massive battles is the ability to position themselves.

Character Abilities and Their Influence on Positioning


Based on the above, I can make the following conclusion. For massive RvR battles, the following holds true: abilities of characters that in any way affect positioning are extremely powerful. Abilities that influence the positioning of MULTIPLE characters are the strongest abilities in the game.

These abilities can provide time to correct the position of a multitude of allies, preventing the inevitable demise of the entire warband. For example, healers of an allied warband come under attack from the opponent's melee blob. Several well-placed pools from an Archmage or Shaman can significantly slow down the opponent's melee blob, greatly reducing or completely preventing damage to vulnerable healers. This can also give tanks time to react to the sudden appearance of opponents and deploy their defensive abilities.

These abilities can also work to worsen the positioning of the opponent. For example, a Chaos Marauder finds himself among the enemy's healers before the melee blob arrives there. The enemy healers will do everything possible to avoid being hit, but a well-executed AoE stun can provide enough time for the allied melee blob to arrive nearby.

Similarly, effective are AoE slows, AoE pulls, AoE knockbacks, and other tools available to players. All of them disrupt or adjust the position of allies or opponents.

What's the Problem


I've provided several examples above in hopes of showing you how a correctly applied ability can completely turn the tide of battle. A well-placed pool can rectify a dire situation where the warband loses a significant portion of its healers. A well-timed AoE stun can turn an evenly matched fight into a staggering victory. However, incorrect timing, poor game sense, or improper target and position choices can only give opponents an advantage in the form of immunities to certain types of control. Immunities to control allow the opponent to play much more aggressively and may give them a decisive advantage in battle.
I see several issues in the game that make it significantly unbalanced in massive battles:
  • The presence of AoE control tools that do not require players to play well. These tools have a colossal impact on positioning with minimal effort from the player wielding them. The most glaring example is Covenant of Celerity, the passive buff of the Disciple of Khaine. Players are required to do absolutely nothing to slow down all enemies around them, only to deal damage, which players already desire to do constantly. Following the logic of recent changes in the game towards increasing the dynamism of battles, I would recommend completely removing the slowing component from this ability. Another example is Git to da Choppa, a channel ability of the Choppa. Not only does it speed up the player themselves, correcting their position in case of positioning errors, but it also pulls opponents, almost guaranteeing them a death sentence. I will describe suggestions for this ability below.
  • The presence of a much larger amount of AoE control on one side than on the other. As I've already noted, AoE control abilities are the strongest abilities in the game, and their presence or absence can greatly change the balance of sides. In my experience playing as a healer, healing allies and positioning well against Order is practically trivial, while maintaining a good position against Destruction is very difficult. The situation worsens with the fact that the most mobile healer in the game (Shaman) is present on the side that fights enemy, which has relatively few AoE control effects. I would recommend giving both sides an equal amount of AoE control.
Abilities like Covenant of Celerity make applying control effects trivial, making it much easier for Order players to make positioning mistakes while being slowed down. Any slight positioning error is punished by Git to da Choppa or Concussive Jolt, realizing even the slightest advantage in Destruction's positioning and exacerbating the situation for Order players. Thus, Destruction can make serious mistakes and be forgiven, while the slightest mistake by an Order player will lead to a series of events undoubtedly leading to their demise.

Seeing the changes in recent patches, it seems to me that the developers are missing the concept of parity in abilities that have the strongest impact on the course of massive battles. For example, the Black Orc received a tactic that speeds up the movement of the entire group, allowing them to take a more advantageous position in battle, while the Swordmaster did not receive such a tactic. I find this strange, as giving a tool that significantly affects positioning to the side that already has many tools to gain an advantage in position seems odd.

How I Would Approach Solving These Problems


You've partially seen my suggestions in the section "What's the Problem." I think it's worth giving all sides of the conflict an equal number of abilities that can significantly change the course of battle by altering the position of their own team or the opponent's team.

However, not all abilities should be approached in the same way. Abilities like Concussive Jolt are extremely dangerous tools in the hands of an experienced player. In the hands of a weak player, however, this ability will only distribute immunities to control for opponents, thus making it balanced and interesting. Such an ability I would propose to transfer to the Order side as well.

However, with abilities like Covenant of Celerity and Git to da Choppa, the situation is different. As I've already written, I would recommend completely removing the slowing component from Covenant of Celerity, as it is a very strong mechanic that provides a colossal advantage without the need to play well. Git to da Choppa has several significant drawbacks that I would like to draw attention to:
  • The ability is extremely easy to apply and has a huge effect. Any player pulled into the melee blob will most likely perish.
  • The ability is a channel ability with a substantial amount of damage. Even if you don't pull anyone, you still deal damage around, sustaining the melee blob's damage.
  • This ability provides acceleration, which helps both in correcting your position and worsening the opponent's position. Simply chasing after enemy healers, you are guaranteed to catch up to them and, if they have no immunity to knockback, pull them one by one, guaranteeing them a tough time.
Playing against such an ability is extremely frustrating. Often it seems like your position as a healer is quite good, but even the slightest mistake can cost you your life. From my experience playing as a healer, being within 50 ft of the enemy melee blob means a colossal risk when playing Order. You can always be hit by a random AoE ability, get slowed down by Covenant of Celerity, and have a Choppa on acceleration from Git to da Choppa running towards you, leaving you to pray that they pull someone else, not you. However, playing as a Destruction healer, I can be within 30 ft of the enemy melee blob and almost always escape from it without using flee.

I would rework the ability Git to da Choppa as follows: Now the ability is called Choppa to da Gits. When using the ability, you need to select any point on the map's surface within a radius of 50 ft from yourself. After choosing this point, you will start channeling the ability for 3 seconds. After the three-second channel, you jump to the selected point, dealing damage to enemies around and gaining 100% career resource.

What does this ability achieve? Firstly, the ability remains both an offensive and defensive ability. You can try to catch up to or flee from opponents. However, it should be remembered that it can be interrupted, so you need to be careful when using it in a group of enemies. Secondly, the fun element remains; a good player will always be able to change their position to be in the right place at the right time. A bad player, however, may break the distance from allies, find themselves surrounded by opponents, and quickly perish. Thirdly, it is quite in the style of an "Orc berserker," who would be happy to rush into the thick of battle. From the perspective of the Warhammer world, it is not clear how greenskins pull other creatures over a long distance. Waaagh magic? Fourthly, we have gotten rid of the "toxic" component of the ability, such as pulling. The Choppa must break away from the melee blob and make their own maneuver, which can be countered with a slow, knockback, or something else, while pulling into the melee blob cannot be outplayed except by increasing a large distance.

Conclusion


Having played as a Destruction healer, spending most of my time within 30 ft of the frontline, I realized how much easier it is to play as a Destruction healer. This doesn't mean that healers on this side are invincible, but surviving as an Order healer is significantly more challenging with the same execution at the same distance.

Obviously, my post contains a significant Order bias, but I hope that in my observations and suggestions, the developers and the balance team will find a kernel of truth, and my feedback will influence future changes in our game for the better.

I would love to see feedback from the Return of Reckoning community and from the developers/balance team personally. Do you think I'm mistaken? How do Destruction healers see the situation? How do players playing other classes perceive the situation?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this post. Sending love to all <3.
Russian
Spoiler:

Вступление


Я хотел бы сделать небольшое балансное предложение для нашей любимой игры. Я не знаю, насколько предложенные мною изменения реальны к имплементации внутри клиента игры, однако, даже если нельзя создать, то что я предлагаю, надеюсь разработчики прислушаются к общему посылу в плане балансировки умений различных классов с точки зрения гейм-дизайна.

Сначала расскажу немного о себе, чтобы вы полностью представляли, какой у меня bias. У меня есть AM, DoK, RP 80RR+. Прокачаны WP, Sham 60RR+, а также WL77 и KotBS70. Большую часть времени я провел на стороне order играя на хилерах, поэтому больше всего познаний в игре у меня именно на этой позиции. Так же хочу отметить, что моим любимым времяпровождением в игре было в массовых RvR активностях в RvR зонах. Хоть сценарии 6v6, 12v12 и являются важной частью игры, мои предложения будут нацелены скорее на массовые RvR сражения (24v24, 100v100).

Позиционирование


Самая эффективная стратегия по уничтожению противника в массовых сражениях – это концентрация AoE урона по небольшой площади, где скопилось большое количество противников. Наиболее удобный, эффективный и надежный метод концентрации AoE урона в игре – это melee blobbing, что означает сбор множества персонажей ближнего боя, которые наносят колоссальное количество урона вокруг себя.

Если противник стоит на пути у такого мили-блоба, ему почти гарантирована смерть. Только огромными усилиями множества игроков возможно спасти персонажа, оказавшегося не в том месте не в то время, жертвуя множеством ресурсов, своим позиционированием и прочим. Количество затраченных усилий на формирование мили-блоба и его менеджмент достаточно малы, в то время как количество усилий по спасению персонажей, оказавшихся в зоне влияния мили-блоба – крайне высоко. Таким образом наилучшая стратегия выживания – это избегать попадания в мили-блоб, одновременно атакуя противника своим мили-блобом.

Идет игра «кто ошибётся первым» и решающее влияние на данное противостояние оказывает умение игроков позиционироваться. Те, кто выбирает свою позицию хорошо – побеждают, кто выбирает плохо – попадают под колёса мили-блоба и умирают. Таким образом я делаю вывод, что одно из самых важных умений для игрока в массовых сражениях – это умение позиционироваться.

Умения персонажей и их влияние на позиционирование


Исходя из вышеописанного, я могу сделать следующий вывод. Для массовых RvR сражений справедливо следующее: умения персонажей, как-либо влияющих на позиционирование, являются крайне сильными. Умения, влияющие на позиционирование МНОЖЕСТВА персонажей, являются самыми сильными умениями в игре.

Данные умения могут дать время на исправление позиции множества союзников, предотвращая неминуемую гибель всей варбанды. Пример: хилеры союзной варбанды оказались под атакой мили-блоба оппонента. Несколько правильно поставленных луж архимага или шамана могут сильно замедлить мили-блоб противника, сильно уменьшив или полностью предотвратив урон по уязвимым хилерам. Так же это может дать время танкам среагировать на внезапное появление оппонента и выдать свои защитные умения.

Данные умения могут работать и для ухудшения позиционирования оппонента. Пример: мародер хаоса оказался в скоплении хилеров противника раньше, чем туда попал мили-блоб. Хилеры противника будут делать все возможное, чтобы не попасть под удар, однако правильно совершенное AoE оглушение может дать достаточное время для того, чтобы союзный мили-блоб оказался рядом.

Точно так же будут эффективны AoE замедления, AoE притягивания, AoE отбрасывания и прочие инструменты, доступные игрокам. Все они портят или исправляют позицию союзников или противников.

В чем же проблема


Я привел несколько примеров выше в надежде показать вам, как ПРАВИЛЬНО примененное умение может полностью повернуть ход сражения. Хорошо поставленная лужа может исправить печальную ситуацию, когда варбанда лишается значительной части своих хилеров. Правильно выданное AoE оглушение может повернуть равный бой в ошеломительную победу. Однако неверный тайминг, плохое чувство игры или некорректный выбор целей и позиции может только дать противникам преимущество в виде неуязвимостей к определенному типу контроля. Неуязвимости к контролю позволят противнику играть гораздо более агрессивно и, возможно, дадут ему решающее преимущество в сражении.

Я вижу несколько проблем в игре, которые делают игру сильно несбалансированной в массовых сражениях.
  • Наличие инструментов AoE контроля, которые не требуют от игрока играть хорошо. Данные инструменты оказывают колоссальное влияние на позиционирование при минимуме усилий со стороны игрока ими владеющим. Самый яркий пример – Covenant of Celerity, пассивный бафф DoK. От игроков совершенно ничего не требуется для реализации замедления на всех противников вокруг, только наносить урон, что игрок и так желает делать постоянно. Следуя логике последних изменений в игре в сторону увеличения динамики сражений, я бы рекомендовал полностью убрать компонент замедления с данного умения. Второй пример – Git to da Choppa, поддерживаемое умение Choppa. Оно не только ускоряет самого игрока, исправляя его позицию в случае ошибки позиционирования, но и притягивает оппонентов, вынося им почти гарантировано смертельный приговор. Предложения по данной способности я опишу ниже.
  • Наличие гораздо большего количества AoE контроля у одной стороны, нежели чем у другой. Как я уже заметил, умения AoE контроля – самые сильные способности в игре и их наличие или отсутствие может сильно изменить баланс сторон. По моему опыту игры на хилере, лечить союзников и позиционироваться хорошо за destruction практически тривиально, в то время как поддерживать хорошую позицию за order очень сложно. Ситуация ухудшается тем, что самый мобильный хилер в игре (шаман) присутствует на стороне, против которой достаточно мало эффектов AoE контроля. Я бы рекомендовал выдать AoE контроль обоим сторонам в равных количествах.
Такие умения как Covenant of celerity делают наложение эффектов контроля тривиальным, order игроку гораздо проще сделать ошибку в позиционировании будучи замедленным. При малейшей ошибке позиционирования их наказывает Git to da Choppa или Concussive Jolt, реализовывая даже малейшее преимущество позиционирования destruction и более усугубляя положение order игрока. Таким образом destruction может серьезно ошибиться и быть прощен, в то время как малейшая ошибка игрока за order приведет к череде событий, несомненно ведущих к его гибели.

Видя изменения последних патчей, мне кажется, что разработчики упускают концепт паритета способностей, которые влияют сильнее всего на протекание массовых сражений. К примеру, Black Orc получил тактику, которая ускоряет передвижение всей группы, позволяя занять более удобную позицию в бою, а Swordmaster такой тактики не получил. Мне кажется это странно, давать сильно влияющий на позиционирование инструмент стороне, которая и без того имеет множество инструментов для получения преимущества в позиции.

Как я бы подошел к решению данных проблем


Частично вы увидели мои предложения в разделе «В чем же проблема». Я думаю, что стоит всем сторонам конфликта дать равное количество способностей, которые могут сильно менять ход сражения, изменяя позицию своей команды или команды оппонента.

Однако не ко всем способностям следует подходить таким образом. Такие способности как Concussive Jolt являются крайне опасным инструментом в руках опытного игрока. В руках же слабого игрока, данная способность будет лишь раздавать неуязвимости к контролю для оппонентов, таким образом делая ее сбалансированной и интересной. Такую способность я бы предложил перенести и на order сторону.

Однако с такими способностями как Covenant of Celerity и Git to da Choppa дело обстоит иначе. Как я уже написал, я бы предложил полностью убрать компонент замедления из Covenant of Celerity, так как это очень сильная механика, дающее колоссальное преимущество без необходимости играть хорошо. У Git to da choppa есть несколько больших минусов, на которые я бы хотел обратить внимание.
  • Умение применять крайне просто и оно дает огромный эффект. Любой притянутый игрок в мили-блоб скорее всего погибнет.
  • Умение является поддерживаемым умением с солидным количеством урона. Даже если вы никого не притянули, вы все равно наносите урон вокруг, поддерживая урон мили-блоба.
  • Данное умение дает ускорение, которое помогает как в исправлении вашей позиции, так и в ухудшении позиции оппонента. Просто гоняясь за хилерами противника, вы гарантировано будете догонять их и, если у них нет неуязвимости к откидыванию, притягивать одного за другим, гарантируя им сложную жизнь.
Играть против подобного умения крайне противно. Часто кажется, что ваша позиция на хилере вполне неплоха, но даже малейшая ошибочка может стоит вам жизни. По моему опыту игры на хилере, быть на расстоянии ближе чем 50 ft от мили-блоба означает колоссальный риск играя за order. Вас всегда может задеть случайное AoE умение, вы получите замедление Covenant of celerity, в вашу сторону побежит Choppa на ускорении от Git to da Choppa и останется только молиться, чтобы он притянул кого-то другого, но не вас. Играя же на хилере destruction, я могу находиться на расстоянии 30 ft от мили-блоба противника и практически всегда убегать от него без использования flee.

Я бы переработал умение Git to da Choppa следующим образом. Теперь умение называется Choppa to da Gits. При использовании умения, вам необходимо выбрать любую точку на поверхности карты в радиусе 50ft от себя. После выбора данной точки, вы начнете применять умение 3 секунды. После трехсекундного применения, вы прыгаете в выбранную точку, нанося урон противникам вокруг и получая 100% карьерного ресурса.

Что данная способность достигает? Во-первых, умение остается как умением нападения, так и умением защиты. Можно попробовать как догнать, так и убежать от оппонентов. Однако следует помнить, что его можно прервать, таким образом нужно быть аккуратным, применяя его в скоплении противников. Во-вторых, fun элемент остается, хороший игрок всегда сможет изменить свою позицию таким образом, чтобы оказаться в правильном месте в правильное время. Плохой же игрок может разорвать дистанцию с союзниками, оказавшись в окружении оппонентов и быстро погибнуть. В-третьих, это вполне в стиле «берсерка орка», который был бы рад ворваться в гущу сражения. С точки зрения мира Warhammer не ясно, каких образом зеленокожие притягивают других существ на большом расстоянии. Waaagh magic? В-четвертых, мы избавились от «токсичного» компонента способности, такой как притягивание. Choppa должен оторваться от мили-блоба и совершить собственный маневр на который можно ответить замедлением, откидыванием или чем-то еще, в то время как притягивание в мили-блоб невозможно переиграть, кроме как наращиванием большой дистанции.

Заключение


Поиграв на хилере destruction, который большую часть своего времени проводит в 30ft от линии сражения, я понял, насколько же проще играть на стороне destruction за хилера. Это не означает, что хилеры данной стороны неуязвимы, однако выжить хилеру order в разы тяжелее при том же исполнении на той же дистанции.

Очевидно, в моем посте присутствует большой Order bias, однако я надеюсь в моих наблюдениях и предложениях разработчики и команда баланса найдет крупицу истины и мой отзыв повлияет на будущие изменения в нашей игре к лучшему.

Я очень хотел бы увидеть отзывы сообщества Return of reckoning и от разработчиков/балансной команды лично. Как вы думаете, ошибаюсь ли я? Как видят ситуацию хилеры destruction? Как видят ситуацию игроки, играющие на иных классах?

Огромное спасибо за уделенное время на прочтение данного поста. Всех целую <3.

French
Spoiler:

Introduction


Je souhaiterais proposer une petite suggestion d'équilibrage pour notre jeu bien-aimé. Je ne sais pas dans quelle mesure les changements que je propose sont réalisables en termes d'implémentation dans le client du jeu, cependant, même s'il n'est pas possible de créer ce que je propose, j'espère que les développeurs prêteront attention au message global en matière d'équilibrage des compétences des différents classes du point de vue du game design.
Tout d'abord, je vais vous parler un peu de moi pour que vous ayez une idée de mes préférences. J'ai un AM, DoK, RP 80RR+. Mes WP, Sham sont également montés à 60RR+, et j'ai un WL 77 et un KotBS 70. J'ai passé la majeure partie de mon temps du côté de l'Ordre en jouant des soigneurs, donc la plupart de mes connaissances dans le jeu se situent à cette position. Je tiens également à souligner que mon activité favorite dans le jeu était les activités RvR de masse dans les zones RvR. Bien que les scénarios 6v6 et 12v12 soient une partie importante du jeu, mes suggestions seront plutôt axées sur les batailles RvR de masse (24v24, 100v100).

Positionnement


La stratégie la plus efficace pour éliminer l'ennemi dans les batailles de masse est de concentrer les dégâts AoE sur une petite zone où un grand nombre d'ennemis se sont rassemblés. La méthode la plus pratique, efficace et fiable pour concentrer les dégâts AoE dans le jeu est le "melee blobbing", ce qui signifie rassembler de nombreux personnages de mêlée qui infligent une énorme quantité de dégâts autour d'eux.

Si un ennemi se trouve sur le chemin d'un tel "melee blob", sa mort est presque garantie. Il faut un effort énorme de la part de nombreux joueurs pour sauver un personnage qui se trouve au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment, en sacrifiant de nombreuses ressources, leur position et plus encore. Le nombre d'efforts nécessaires pour former et gérer un "melee blob" est assez faible, tandis que le nombre d'efforts pour sauver les personnages qui se trouvent dans la zone d'influence du "melee blob" est extrêmement élevé. Ainsi, la meilleure stratégie de survie est d'éviter de se retrouver dans un "melee blob" tout en attaquant simultanément l'ennemi avec son propre "melee blob".

Le jeu est un "qui fera la première erreur" et la compétence la plus importante pour un joueur dans les batailles de masse est la capacité à se positionner.
Compétences des personnages et leur influence sur le positionnement

Sur la base de ce qui précède, je peux tirer la conclusion suivante.


Pour les batailles RvR de masse, la situation est la suivante : les compétences des personnages ayant un impact quelconque sur le positionnement sont extrêmement puissantes. Les compétences ayant un impact sur le positionnement de MULTIPLES personnages sont les compétences les plus puissantes du jeu.

Ces compétences peuvent donner du temps pour rectifier la position de nombreux alliés, empêchant ainsi la mort inévitable de tout le groupe. Exemple : les soigneurs d'un groupe allié se retrouvent sous l'attaque du "melee blob" de l'adversaire. Quelques zones correctement placées d'un archimage ou d'un chaman peuvent ralentir considérablement le "melee blob" adverse, réduisant ainsi considérablement ou empêchant complètement les dégâts infligés aux soigneurs vulnérables. Cela peut également donner du temps aux tanks pour réagir à l'apparition soudaine de l'adversaire et utiliser leurs compétences défensives.

Ces compétences peuvent également fonctionner pour détériorer la position de l'adversaire. Exemple : un maraudeur du chaos se retrouve dans le groupe de soigneurs de l'adversaire avant que le "melee blob" n'arrive. Les soigneurs adverses feront tout leur possible pour ne pas être touchés, mais un étourdissement AoE correctement exécuté peut leur donner suffisamment de temps pour que le "melee blob" allié se retrouve à proximité.

De même, les ralentissements AoE, les attirances AoE, les repoussions AoE et autres outils disponibles pour les joueurs sont tous des moyens de perturber ou de corriger la position des alliés ou des adversaires.

Quel est donc le problème


J'ai donné plusieurs exemples ci-dessus dans l'espoir de vous montrer comment une compétence correctement appliquée peut complètement changer le cours du combat. Une zone bien placée peut rectifier une situation désespérée où le groupe perd une partie significative de ses soigneurs. Un étourdissement AoE bien chronométr
é peut transformer un combat équilibré en une victoire écrasante. Cependant, un mauvais timing, un manque de sens du jeu ou un choix incorrect de cibles et de position peuvent seulement donner à vos adversaires un avantage sous forme d'invincibilité à un certain type de contrôle. Les invincibilités au contrôle permettront à l'adversaire de jouer de manière beaucoup plus agressive et, peut-être, de leur donner un avantage décisif dans le combat.
Je vois plusieurs problèmes dans le jeu qui rendent le jeu très déséquilibré dans les batailles de masse.
  • La présence d'outils de contrôle AoE qui ne nécessitent pas que le joueur joue bien. Ces outils ont un impact colossal sur le positionnement avec un minimum d'efforts de la part du joueur qui les utilise. L'exemple le plus frappant est le Covenant of Celerity, le buff passif du DoK. Rien n'est demandé aux joueurs pour ralentir tous les ennemis autour d'eux, sauf infliger des dégâts, ce que le joueur souhaite déjà faire en permanence. Suivant la logique des récents changements dans le jeu visant à augmenter la dynamique des combats, je recommanderais de supprimer complètement le composant de ralentissement de cette compétence. Un deuxième exemple est le Git to da Choppa, une compétence soutenue par le Choppa. Non seulement cela accélère le joueur lui-même, corrigeant sa position en cas d'erreur de positionnement, mais cela attire également les adversaires, leur infligeant presque certainement un jugement de mort. Je décrirai les suggestions pour cette compétence plus loin.


    La présence d'un bien plus grand nombre de contrôles AoE d'un côté que de l'autre. Comme je l'ai déjà mentionné, les compétences de contrôle AoE sont les compétences les plus puissantes du jeu et leur présence ou leur absence peut considérablement modifier l'équilibre des forces. Selon mon expérience en tant que soigneur, soigner ses alliés et bien se positionner pour Destruction est presque trivial, tandis que maintenir une bonne position pour Order est très difficile. La situation est aggravée par le fait que le soigneur le plus mobile du jeu (le chaman) est présent du côté où il y a relativement peu d'effets de contrôle AoE. Je recommanderais de donner des compétences de contrôle AoE à chaque côté en quantités égales.

Des compétences comme le Covenant of Celerity rendent l'application des effets de contrôle trivial, il est beaucoup plus facile pour un joueur Order de faire une erreur de positionnement en étant ralenti. En cas de la moindre erreur de positionnement, ils sont punis par le Git to da Choppa ou le Concussive Jolt, réalisant même un léger avantage de positionnement pour Destruction et aggravant encore la situation pour le joueur Order. Ainsi, Destruction peut sérieusement se tromper et être pardonné, tandis que la moindre erreur du joueur Order entraînera une série d'événements conduisant inévitablement à sa mort.

En voyant les changements des derniers patchs, il me semble que les développeurs manquent le concept de parité des compétences qui ont le plus d'impact sur le déroulement des batailles de masse. Par exemple, le Black Orc a reçu une tactique qui accélère le déplacement de tout le groupe, permettant de prendre une position plus confortable dans le combat, tandis que le Swordmaster n'a pas reçu une telle tactique. Il me semble étrange de donner un outil ayant un impact aussi important sur le positionnement à un côté qui possède déjà de nombreux outils pour obtenir un avantage de position.

Comment je résoudrais ces problèmes


Vous avez partiellement vu mes suggestions dans la section "Quel est donc le problème". Je pense qu'il serait judicieux de donner à toutes les factions un nombre égal de compétences qui peuvent considérablement changer le cours du combat en modifiant la position de leur propre équipe ou de l'équipe adverse.

Cependant, toutes les compétences ne doivent pas être traitées de la même manière. Des compétences comme Concussive Jolt sont des outils extrêmement dangereux entre les mains d'un joueur expérimenté. Entre les mains d'un joueur faible, cette compétence ne fera que distribuer des invincibilités au contrôle pour les adversaires, ce qui la rend équilibrée et intéressante. Je proposerais donc de transférer une telle compétence du côté Destruction au côté Order.
Cependant, des compétences comme le Covenant of Celerity et le Git to da Choppa sont différents. Comme je l'ai déjà mentionné, je proposerais de supprimer complètement le composant de ralentissement du Covenant of Celerity, car c'est une mécanique très puissante qui confère un énorme avantage sans nécessiter de bien jouer. Le Git to da Choppa présente plusieurs inconvénients majeurs sur lesquels je voudrais attirer l'attention.

  • La compétence est très facile à utiliser et elle a un effet énorme. Tout joueur attiré dans le "melee blob" mourra probablement.


    La compétence est une compétence soutenue avec beaucoup de dégâts. Même si vous n'attirez personne, vous infligez toujours des dégâts tout en soutenant les dégâts du "melee blob".


    Cette compétence offre une accélération qui aide à corriger votre position et à détériorer la position de l'adversaire. En poursuivant simplement les soigneurs adverses, vous les rattraperez certainement et, s'ils n'ont pas d'invincibilité au renversement, vous les attirerez les uns après les autres, ce qui leur rendra la vie difficile.

Jouer contre une telle compétence est extrêmement désagréable. Il arrive souvent que votre position de soigneur semble plutôt bonne, mais la moindre erreur peut vous coûter la vie. D'après mon expérience en tant que soigneur, être à moins de 50 pieds du "melee blob" signifie un risque énorme en tant que joueur Order. Vous pouvez toujours être touché par une compétence AoE aléatoire, vous recevez un r
alentissement du Covenant of Celerity, un Choppa accéléré par le Git to da Choppa court vers vous et il ne reste plus qu'à espérer qu'il attire quelqu'un d'autre, mais pas vous. En jouant en tant que soigneur de Destruction, je peux être à moins de 30 pieds du "melee blob" adverse et m'échapper presque toujours sans utiliser la fuite.

Je repenserais la compétence Git to da Choppa de la manière suivante. La compétence s'appelle désormais Choppa to da Gits. Lorsque vous utilisez la compétence, vous devez choisir n'importe quel point sur la carte dans un rayon de 50 pieds autour de vous. Après avoir choisi ce point, vous commencerez à utiliser la compétence pendant 3 secondes. Après une utilisation de trois secondes, vous sauterez jusqu'au point choisi, infligeant des dégâts aux ennemis autour de vous et recevant 100% de ressources de carrière.

Qu'est-ce que cette compétence apporte ? Premièrement, la compétence reste à la fois une compétence d'attaque et une compétence de défense. Vous pouvez essayer de rattraper ou de fuir les adversaires. Cependant, il faut se rappeler qu'il peut être interrompu, il faut donc être prudent lors de son utilisation au milieu des ennemis. Deuxièmement, l'élément de plaisir reste présent, un bon joueur pourra toujours changer sa position de manière à être au bon endroit au bon moment. Un mauvais joueur peut cependant rompre la distance avec ses alliés en se retrouvant entouré d'ennemis et mourir rapidement. Troisièmement, cela correspond parfaitement au style de l'orc berserker qui serait heureux de se jeter dans la mêlée. Du point de vue de l'univers de Warhammer, il n'est pas clair comment les peaux vertes attirent les autres créatures à distance. Magie Waaagh ? Quatrièmement, nous nous sommes débarrassés de l'aspect "toxique" de la compétence, tel que l'attraction. Le Choppa doit se séparer du "melee blob" et effectuer sa propre manœuvre à laquelle on peut répondre par un ralentissement, un renversement ou autre chose, tandis que l'attraction dans le "melee blob" est impossible à contrer, sauf en accumulant une grande distance.

Conclusion


Après avoir joué en tant que soigneur Destruction, qui passe la majeure partie de son temps à 30 pieds de la ligne de front, j'ai réalisé à quel point il est plus facile de jouer du côté de Destruction en tant que soigneur. Cela ne signifie pas que les soigneurs de ce côté sont invulnérables, mais survivre en tant que soigneur Order est beaucoup plus difficile avec la même exécution et la même distance.

De toute évidence, mon message est fortement biaisé en faveur de Order, cependant, j'espère que dans mes observations et mes suggestions, les développeurs et l'équipe d'équilibrage trouveront une once de vérité et que mon retour d'information influencera les futurs changements de notre jeu pour le mieux.

Je serais très intéressé par les commentaires de la communauté de Return of Reckoning ainsi que par ceux des développeurs et de l'équipe d'équilibrage personnellement. Que pensez-vous, ai-je tort ? Comment les soigneurs de Destruction voient-ils la situation ? Comment les joueurs qui jouent d'autres classes voient-ils la situation ?

Un grand merci d'avoir pris le temps de lire ce message. Je vous embrasse tous <3.

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Zxul
Posts: 1396

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#2 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:01 pm

To save a lot of time of reading that- "destro overpowered, nerf Covenant of Celerity, nerf BO, nerf choppa".
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

User avatar
reyaloran
Posts: 21

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#3 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:37 pm

Man I love reading people complain about git to the choppa's pull. Its such a good litmus test for bad play. That pull is a nerf to the ability due to its 20 foot range being both smaller then the damage range of GtdC and it being smaller then the shortest range aoe in the melee ball. All it does most of the time is just give free knockback immunity to the melee and tanks that you are trying to aoe or push through. If you are a healer being pulled by it then you were already in the melee's range and deserve to die for being so far out of position.

As for covenant of celerity, it requires the dok player to put them selves out of position to keep the buff on the melee if they go for order's healers. Since it only has a 100 foot range you could easily out range it by again not being 30 feet from your melee and using your natural 100 foot healing range to be effectively outside the max range of the effect.

TLDR, don't blame destro from jumping on you for you being within 50 feet of the melee ball.

User avatar
leftayparxoun
Posts: 40

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#4 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:46 pm

Thank you for the post. To compliment your order bias, as you put it, let me share a bit of my Destro bias:

I agree completely about your assesment regarding positioning and melee blobs being currently the deciding factors of victory. I also agree that Destro currrently has superior repositioning/cc options. What I also believe, however, is that you are missing a few things in your analysis. Here they are:

1. Saving people from melee blobs isn't equal between factions: Order faction has to its arsenal defensive abilities to significantly mitigate damage taken, in an equally trivial manner as stacking melee blobs. All you need is a WP for his WOU bonus buff, a Kotbs to increase inc healing by 15% for party members, and if they are also feeling like it also reducing crit.dmg taken by 20%. Also keep in mind that RPs and WPs can be built fairly tankier than their destro counterparts if needed. Therefore, while Destro has it easier when it comes to positioning melee blobs, Order has it easier tanking those blobs in a consistent manner.

2. Power of melee blobs: While you correctly surmised that melee blobs are indeed deadly killing machines, I believe you again failed to mention the relative effectiness of the the blobs between the factions. The power of the blobs mainly relies on massively timed channel skills that decimate enemies. The common way of countering those is to either mitigate their dmg through challenge or by interrupting them.
Challenge is unfortunately in a bad state at the moment where due to the small conal angle of the area it can only apply to so many enemies. And even if it does get applied, due to the nature of the current meta, 30 ft AOE channels can strip it almost instantly. Especially 30 ft omnidirectional ones with high hit frequency like WL's Whirling Axe. Which also brings me directly to the main point: interrupts.
For destro the best available tool in a melee blob v melee blob situation is Mara's Mouth of Tzeentch, with a narrow stripe-type hitbox and 40 ft range. For order the equivalent ability is WL's Echoing Roar, a 30ft radius omnidirectional AOE ability. Even when disregarding the player ratio in rvr between those two classes in favor of WLs, the area of effect between the two should be sufficient to show that, in a Destro vs Order melee blob fight, Destro will have a really hard time using their AOE channels to the fullest compared to Order. Which in turn forces Destro to rely on non-channeling potent AOE abilities (mainly stacking Choppas with the newly added Furious Stomping). People refer to it as poor man's Inevitable Doom, but currently due to the bugged state of ID I'd personally say it's a bit better. Whenever ID is fixed, expect the situation to turn even more in favor of order melee blobs.

All in all, I enjoyed your analysis and while you are on the right about the discrepancy in CC/movement tools between the factions, it cannot be viewed in vacuum. Should an equalization take place (despite the game striving to avoid direct mirrors) it should be also accompanied by nerfs/buffs in other important aspects of a wb's strength.

P.S. I also expect people to provide counterguements about both GTDC and CoC since the former turns Choppas into immunity vendors and the later relies on chance.
Onlymelee MSH, Onlyhealing Zealot, Onlyhater BG - Entropy and Chaos

"All men make mistakes, but a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong, and repairs the evil. The only crime is pride."
The Antigone of Sophocles

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CyunUnderis
Posts: 492
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Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#5 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:14 pm

It's interesting to get feedback from a player about AoE CC, especially after the Ability Rework.

Unfortunately, the post is a little biased and this is completely understandable since it highlights spells unique to Destruction.

Let's discuss GtdC first.
Spoiler:
Since the Ability Rework, this ability has been nerfed really hard :
- Reducer range to 30 feet
- Cooldown reverted back to 30 seconds

In addition, this ability is bugged, in the sense that it will not pull a target hit every 2 seconds. Choppa players have a different feel compared to before. So if a player gets pulled, it means that he is very poorly positioned and deserves to be punished (excluding bug - pull from more than 30ft, out of line of sight, ...).

Of course, the damage has been increased, making the spell strong despite everything. On the other hand, as has been pointed out, this spell unfortunately gives immunities, blocking the faction from certain possible actions.

Unfortunately, I don't think giving instead a jump (even if there is a cast time) is a good idea. If anything, I'm not sure the Order wants to have an SH/Choppa duo jumping into a backline, especially with the introduction of Furious Stompin'.

To me, if GtdC doesn't pull and so, doesn't give immunities, it will be a big up for the Destruction (especially for the WB that try to assist ST between AoE channels).
For the 20% snare from CoC, I can't really discuss about it because I don't seem to feel it.

In any case, I think the OP opened the discussion to an interesting topic but not necessarily the right abilities.

Indeed, AoE CCs have value and when well timed can change the course of a battle. Particularly with AoE snare which allows groups with fewer numbers to gain distance.

Unfortunately, these skills have been drastically nerfed (reduced duration and efficiency) and anti-slows have been introduced for tanks, in addition to anti-CC skills (+ buff speed as the OP pointed out).

As a result, small structures will have a much harder time stretching/kiting groups larger than them, making the zerg ever more powerful.

It is also good to know that the AoE stagger of the Knight/Chosen has increased to 5 seconds of duration, for 40 feet of range.
This is a very powerful spell if timed well and the affected backline is grouped in one place (and both factions have this skill). Unfortunately (or fortunately?), this skill is underutilized because currently RvR fights are primarily Zerg vs Zerg, making numbers more important than skills.

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Scottx125
Posts: 968

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#6 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:36 pm

leftayparxoun wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:46 pm Thank you for the post. To compliment your order bias, as you put it, let me share a bit of my Destro bias:

I agree completely about your assesment regarding positioning and melee blobs being currently the deciding factors of victory. I also agree that Destro currrently has superior repositioning/cc options. What I also believe, however, is that you are missing a few things in your analysis. Here they are:

1. Saving people from melee blobs isn't equal between factions: Order faction has to its arsenal defensive abilities to significantly mitigate damage taken, in an equally trivial manner as stacking melee blobs. All you need is a WP for his WOU bonus buff, a Kotbs to increase inc healing by 15% for party members, and if they are also feeling like it also reducing crit.dmg taken by 20%. Also keep in mind that RPs and WPs can be built fairly tankier than their destro counterparts if needed. Therefore, while Destro has it easier when it comes to positioning melee blobs, Order has it easier tanking those blobs in a consistent manner.

2. Power of melee blobs: While you correctly surmised that melee blobs are indeed deadly killing machines, I believe you again failed to mention the relative effectiness of the the blobs between the factions. The power of the blobs mainly relies on massively timed channel skills that decimate enemies. The common way of countering those is to either mitigate their dmg through challenge or by interrupting them.
Challenge is unfortunately in a bad state at the moment where due to the small conal angle of the area it can only apply to so many enemies. And even if it does get applied, due to the nature of the current meta, 30 ft AOE channels can strip it almost instantly. Especially 30 ft omnidirectional ones with high hit frequency like WL's Whirling Axe. Which also brings me directly to the main point: interrupts.
For destro the best available tool in a melee blob v melee blob situation is Mara's Mouth of Tzeentch, with a narrow stripe-type hitbox and 40 ft range. For order the equivalent ability is WL's Echoing Roar, a 30ft radius omnidirectional AOE ability. Even when disregarding the player ratio in rvr between those two classes in favor of WLs, the area of effect between the two should be sufficient to show that, in a Destro vs Order melee blob fight, Destro will have a really hard time using their AOE channels to the fullest compared to Order. Which in turn forces Destro to rely on non-channeling potent AOE abilities (mainly stacking Choppas with the newly added Furious Stomping). People refer to it as poor man's Inevitable Doom, but currently due to the bugged state of ID I'd personally say it's a bit better. Whenever ID is fixed, expect the situation to turn even more in favor of order melee blobs.

All in all, I enjoyed your analysis and while you are on the right about the discrepancy in CC/movement tools between the factions, it cannot be viewed in vacuum. Should an equalization take place (despite the game striving to avoid direct mirrors) it should be also accompanied by nerfs/buffs in other important aspects of a wb's strength.

P.S. I also expect people to provide counterguements about both GTDC and CoC since the former turns Choppas into immunity vendors and the later relies on chance.
WP's are tankier but they're not gonna survive in a melee blob for very long. Literally the only difference between an AM/WP is the fact they have medium armour. All their other abilities are subject to situational usage, but I'd argue the fact that an AM can cast from 60-90ft away more than makes up for their lack of armour and defensive tactics, they also out heal WPs (and btw, you can strip the wounds buff very easily>.>). Yes, order healing is quite strong but so is destro healing. Healers across the board are extremely potent. But a WP may I remind you, whilst it has quick casting group heals and a channel, most of it's healing power is derived from it's channel and hots. If you get pulled into a blob and try to cast your AoE heal, you're gonna do a fat lot of nothing due to the setback caused by the amount of hits you take, that 1s cast easily becomes a 2-4 second cast. As it stands with the current blob meta going on, I'd say WP is probably the worst healer to bring to an ORVR primetime WB, primarily because there's no way you can survive being within 30ft of a melee blob (and you need to be within 30ft to do most of your effective healing).

It's pretty obvious destro for quite some time has had the advantage in terms of ORVR fights due to their abundance of CC. Now combined with the fact that the new choppa ability hits like a truck and they have amazing CC/dps abilities and they're pretty survivable for a dps. It makes them pretty hard to face massed in a melee blob. Kinda explains why most of the top kills are choppas of late.

Order had the advantage in funnels because of Rampage. Which was necessary since destro tanks were on the whole far tankier on average than their order alternatives. Now that order has lost much of that utility, we're riding the meta train of slayer parry builds and WL spin to win builds to remain competitive in ORVR.

The biggest problem, is that it only takes 1 idiot to do the wrong CC to completely ruin your chances at CCing a melee blob. If it's timed poorly and they all get immunities, you're pretty much done for, even if you/your warband didn't make the mistake.
Spoiler:
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lemao
Posts: 300

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#7 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:31 pm

aint reading all of that but I wish you good luck

Xameleon
Posts: 19

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#8 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:35 pm

Thank you guys for your detailed replies, that is what I was hoping for by posting: to get a look at different perspective. I am absolutely biased, that's why I described that I mostly (not only though) play order.
Zxul wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:01 pm To save a lot of time of reading that- "destro overpowered, nerf Covenant of Celerity, nerf BO, nerf choppa".
Thanks for providing a very quick tl;dr for people who don't feel like reading a lot of text. I would say "destro OP, delete CoC, give some destro exclusive toys to order, remake some toxic abilities like GtdC to make them a bit more fun version that both sides can be happy with". No need to nerf Choppa (Choppa to da gits is strong ability in my eyes, not a nerf) or BO. But your version is ok too.

reyaloran wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:37 pm TLDR, don't blame destro from jumping on you for you being within 50 feet of the melee ball.
I am really sorry if I didn't express myself accurately, next time I hope I can describe my thoughts and thought process a bit more clear.
What I meant is: game will benefit from same difficulty of surviving on healer role in both realms. Currently I think the situation is skewed. It's rather difficult to survive as order healer and really easy as destro healer. Ever easier if you are a shaman.
I hope I made my statement clear this time and no side will feel blamed by me. I agree that my positional mistakes are only my mistakes. I just hoped that order healer could sometimes get away from 50ft positioning error as easily as destro healer can get away from 20-30ft positional error while not pressing any defensive cooldowns.

leftayparxoun wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:46 pm Thank you for the post. To compliment your order bias, as you put it, let me share a bit of my Destro bias
Thank you very much for sharing you experience, I absolutely loved your feedback and I think I learned a thing or two from it.
Order side does indeed has a bit more tools that are quite powerful for saving people that made a mistake of positioning. I would like to point out, that it does not make it trivial or easy to save people from such situations. It is still more reasonable to just completely avoid such situations.
I 100% agree that global changes like removing CoC, remaking GtdC or giving order AoE CC may be not the best idea without changing some other aspects of the game like tools for surviving. Since I am not that experienced with tanking or DPSing, I can and will overlook different aspects of this complicated game. That's why I made this post: I want to learn from you.
I think currently it's a death sentence to enter melee blob as a healer from any side, no matter the blob strength. It is more of a question "who has easier time avoiding it completely".
I am really glad you enjoyed my analysis, it is really heartwarming to hear such feedback, thank you very much!
CyunUnderis wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:14 pm It's interesting to get feedback from a player about AoE CC, especially after the Ability Rework.

Unfortunately, the post is a little biased and this is completely understandable since it highlights spells unique to Destruction.
Thank you very much for you feedback. I do appreciate your thoughts and insights considering my "Choppa to da gits" ability and overall view of balance.
As I said, I am indeed biased, so everyone should be cautious about taking my opinion as an absolute objective truth.
It is somewhat sad to see abilities not working as intended. It brings no joy to have that for both realms, only makes more sense to replace it. I hope my feedback on this matter will spark some ideas about remaking GtdC for the better, more fun for everyone, fully functional ability. I appreciate your concerns about mSH and Choppas jumping into order backlines. It is, indeed, a scary situation to be in as an order backline player. I just had a vision of fun ability that take skill and effort to use, I have almost no hope for it being perfectly balanced as I described it, but with the help of experienced players it may be brought to a more balanced state.
I feel your frustration about increasingly zerging nature of oRvR massive battles. It is sad to see things devolving into that kind of playstyle. I lack experience to comprehensively give a feedback on that matter, so I will leave it for more seasoned veterans to discuss.

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Stimpz
Posts: 36

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#9 » Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:32 pm

Spoiler:
Scottx125 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:36 pm
leftayparxoun wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:46 pm Thank you for the post. To compliment your order bias, as you put it, let me share a bit of my Destro bias:

I agree completely about your assesment regarding positioning and melee blobs being currently the deciding factors of victory. I also agree that Destro currrently has superior repositioning/cc options. What I also believe, however, is that you are missing a few things in your analysis. Here they are:

1. Saving people from melee blobs isn't equal between factions: Order faction has to its arsenal defensive abilities to significantly mitigate damage taken, in an equally trivial manner as stacking melee blobs. All you need is a WP for his WOU bonus buff, a Kotbs to increase inc healing by 15% for party members, and if they are also feeling like it also reducing crit.dmg taken by 20%. Also keep in mind that RPs and WPs can be built fairly tankier than their destro counterparts if needed. Therefore, while Destro has it easier when it comes to positioning melee blobs, Order has it easier tanking those blobs in a consistent manner.

2. Power of melee blobs: While you correctly surmised that melee blobs are indeed deadly killing machines, I believe you again failed to mention the relative effectiness of the the blobs between the factions. The power of the blobs mainly relies on massively timed channel skills that decimate enemies. The common way of countering those is to either mitigate their dmg through challenge or by interrupting them.
Challenge is unfortunately in a bad state at the moment where due to the small conal angle of the area it can only apply to so many enemies. And even if it does get applied, due to the nature of the current meta, 30 ft AOE channels can strip it almost instantly. Especially 30 ft omnidirectional ones with high hit frequency like WL's Whirling Axe. Which also brings me directly to the main point: interrupts.
For destro the best available tool in a melee blob v melee blob situation is Mara's Mouth of Tzeentch, with a narrow stripe-type hitbox and 40 ft range. For order the equivalent ability is WL's Echoing Roar, a 30ft radius omnidirectional AOE ability. Even when disregarding the player ratio in rvr between those two classes in favor of WLs, the area of effect between the two should be sufficient to show that, in a Destro vs Order melee blob fight, Destro will have a really hard time using their AOE channels to the fullest compared to Order. Which in turn forces Destro to rely on non-channeling potent AOE abilities (mainly stacking Choppas with the newly added Furious Stomping). People refer to it as poor man's Inevitable Doom, but currently due to the bugged state of ID I'd personally say it's a bit better. Whenever ID is fixed, expect the situation to turn even more in favor of order melee blobs.

All in all, I enjoyed your analysis and while you are on the right about the discrepancy in CC/movement tools between the factions, it cannot be viewed in vacuum. Should an equalization take place (despite the game striving to avoid direct mirrors) it should be also accompanied by nerfs/buffs in other important aspects of a wb's strength.

P.S. I also expect people to provide counterguements about both GTDC and CoC since the former turns Choppas into immunity vendors and the later relies on chance.
WP's are tankier but they're not gonna survive in a melee blob for very long. Literally the only difference between an AM/WP is the fact they have medium armour. All their other abilities are subject to situational usage, but I'd argue the fact that an AM can cast from 60-90ft away more than makes up for their lack of armour and defensive tactics, they also out heal WPs (and btw, you can strip the wounds buff very easily>.>). Yes, order healing is quite strong but so is destro healing. Healers across the board are extremely potent. But a WP may I remind you, whilst it has quick casting group heals and a channel, most of it's healing power is derived from it's channel and hots. If you get pulled into a blob and try to cast your AoE heal, you're gonna do a fat lot of nothing due to the setback caused by the amount of hits you take, that 1s cast easily becomes a 2-4 second cast. As it stands with the current blob meta going on, I'd say WP is probably the worst healer to bring to an ORVR primetime WB, primarily because there's no way you can survive being within 30ft of a melee blob (and you need to be within 30ft to do most of your effective healing).

It's pretty obvious destro for quite some time has had the advantage in terms of ORVR fights due to their abundance of CC. Now combined with the fact that the new choppa ability hits like a truck and they have amazing CC/dps abilities and they're pretty survivable for a dps. It makes them pretty hard to face massed in a melee blob. Kinda explains why most of the top kills are choppas of late.

Order had the advantage in funnels because of Rampage. Which was necessary since destro tanks were on the whole far tankier on average than their order alternatives. Now that order has lost much of that utility, we're riding the meta train of slayer parry builds and WL spin to win builds to remain competitive in ORVR.

The biggest problem, is that it only takes 1 idiot to do the wrong CC to completely ruin your chances at CCing a melee blob. If it's timed poorly and they all get immunities, you're pretty much done for, even if you/your warband didn't make the mistake.
destro tanks were on the whole far tankier on average than their order alternatives
Why do people say that so often? Kotbs is by far the best Tank in the whole game. IB is also very strong, and for a long time, BO was considered the worst Tank of all.
Yes, Chosen is a fine tank, but to say he is tankier than a Kotbs is not true. You know that they have ! 50% ! DMG reduction on demand? for 10 seconds with a 30 seconds CD!
And I don't start with all their utility.
I'm not saying that Destro Tanks are all worse than Order's, but I would never dare say that Destro Tanks are by far tankier than their Order alternative.

I'm not even mad, but I don't understand why nobody acknowledges that Kotbs even got buffed with the last patches. And I don't want him to get nerfed or something because that is what the Kotbs is; the ultimate Tank and that is fine.

Also, there are so many posts about the bad state of Order lately, but they are doing so well in almost all aspects of the game.
They win the most cities, winning in LOTD lately, and get the most forts. the only thing that is not in their favor are the numbers, and even that is only a matter of time till the next turn of tides begins. I don't want to say that Order is overpowered or something; I'm only a bit confused why there are so many voices that say that the last patch broke Order while they almost win everything that matters.

Oh, and sorry, I didn't want to derail the original theme of the post. You have some legit concerns and are posting them in a fair manner.
Last edited by Stimpz on Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rotgut
Posts: 113

Re: Let's discuss AoE CC

Post#10 » Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:18 am

Destro should have more CC and up-front damage (AoE KDs, pulls, stacking Stompin' and GTDC), and Order should have better healing and better defensive spells (KobS Heal Aura, Vigilance' and Vaul's Tempering party dmg reduction, WL's better than Mara's AoE Interrupt). Along with the difference in Morale Gain, its what differentiates both factions gameplay.

Those differences won't really matter until oRvR changes to something that incentivize spreading around the map, as blobbing kills any sort of finesse except for positioning and morale building, which are pretty much all that one can do in blobwarfare™.

If Balance progresses along these lines i think we'll have a very enjoyable end result, where timing and accuracy (as in, who u target with your CC) of Spells will have a higher impact than just spamming AoE Dmg and relying on gear and WB comp (like stacking procs with classes that can abuse them).

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