Let's discuss AoE CC

[Vaul]

Cc barely exists on RoR when you compare it to a game like DaoC. This attitude is why no one can have nice things. Big Brawlin got nerfed into oblivion because of people whining and failing to adapt to the situation. Same thing with Slice Through. It used to be amazing, now its trash. The game needs more aoe cc, not less.

If you can't be bothered to position properly you deserve to be punished.

Isn't this the OP's point? Destro have more AoE CC so don't get punished ?

[leftayparxoun]

Arcing Swing + Overpowering Swing from Knight is the equivalent for the Order. But Deeply Impaled from the Marauder is not mirrored.

Knew I was missing something . Ty for correcting me.
My point then should be even more relevant since Deeply Impaled must be applied as ST. Meaning that the differences between the factions' melee blobs, debuff-wise, should be minor. Compared to the differences in available party-buffs (WOU, -crit dmg%, +healing%)

If you are going to use ID with WW as an example, then you should also use Cleanse with FotWK. They are both zero CD and subsequently become a 1:1 GCD trade. More slayers in an example? More healers. It's all 2/2/2.

I don't think the example you took is good (especially in 24 vs 24 or Zerg vs Zerg - might be more real in 6 vs 6 or 12 vs 12). The greater the mass, the weaker the combo Clean + CD reducer is compared to the combo ID + CD reducer because, like you say, there is a lot of debuffs (including DoT), so ID will naturally be covered, even if the Slayers don't do it themselves.

Even ignoring the other debuffs that may be placed alongside ID, like Cyun mentions, proposing that For The Witch King (FTWK, Destro CD reducer) can be used to counter ID is a completely wrong mentality imo, and does the argument for ID no favours. Let me explain:

I demonstrated in my previous comment how ID can quickly get out of hand when purposely stacked. If FTWK+Cleanses is the intended counter to it then, in my opinion, it is a game design mistake:

For Order to successfully perform the offense it just requires Slayers in the same party paired with a WW SM. You could have 2 parties in a wb for example with the same strategy.
For Destro to successfully perform the counter-defence it requires a FTWK bg in EVERY party that may be attacked by the enemy blob.
As a result:
1. It limits Destro's warband class options (by practically enforcing a Chosen+ FTWK Bg duo for Meta comps)
2. It promotes defensive use of FTWK (save it for when the ID train starts) vs free use of WW for Order (use it whenever you want to apply pressure)
3. It may even promote a similar class diversity issue on Order, where Kotbs + WW SM are stacked with Slayers in every party.

On the other hand, while Furious Stomping can't be disenchanted by certain classes (like IBs as was mentioned) you don't need to have 1 disenchanting class in every party; as long as there are sufficient tanks near the backline that can disenchant Choppas (For example 4 Kotbs, 1 from every party, especially if using the Destroy Enchantment tactic) the issue shouldn't require a change in Order party composition.

To summarize:
- Having to change party/warband composition to a great degree to counter just a single ability is bad game design and should be avoided at any cost.
- Having to change faction-wide class builds to a great degree to counter just a single ability is an even worse game design (and the reason I'm glad old Rampage got rightfully changed)

While I didn't want to detract from the original topic, I believe many of the things we have discussed here are also relevant to possible balancing of other issues, like for the CC discussion. For that reason I decided to keep the conversation going. I hope neither the Author of the post or the people reading it mind this (imo needed) detour.

[Stimpz]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

WP's are tankier but they're not gonna survive in a melee blob for very long. Literally the only difference between an AM/WP is the fact they have medium armour. All their other abilities are subject to situational usage, but I'd argue the fact that an AM can cast from 60-90ft away more than makes up for their lack of armour and defensive tactics, they also out heal WPs (and btw, you can strip the wounds buff very easily>.>). Yes, order healing is quite strong but so is destro healing. Healers across the board are extremely potent. But a WP may I remind you, whilst it has quick casting group heals and a channel, most of it's healing power is derived from it's channel and hots. If you get pulled into a blob and try to cast your AoE heal, you're gonna do a fat lot of nothing due to the setback caused by the amount of hits you take, that 1s cast easily becomes a 2-4 second cast. As it stands with the current blob meta going on, I'd say WP is probably the worst healer to bring to an ORVR primetime WB, primarily because there's no way you can survive being within 30ft of a melee blob (and you need to be within 30ft to do most of your effective healing).

It's pretty obvious destro for quite some time has had the advantage in terms of ORVR fights due to their abundance of CC. Now combined with the fact that the new choppa ability hits like a truck and they have amazing CC/dps abilities and they're pretty survivable for a dps. It makes them pretty hard to face massed in a melee blob. Kinda explains why most of the top kills are choppas of late.

Order had the advantage in funnels because of Rampage. Which was necessary since destro tanks were on the whole far tankier on average than their order alternatives. Now that order has lost much of that utility, we're riding the meta train of slayer parry builds and WL spin to win builds to remain competitive in ORVR.

The biggest problem, is that it only takes 1 idiot to do the wrong CC to completely ruin your chances at CCing a melee blob. If it's timed poorly and they all get immunities, you're pretty much done for, even if you/your warband didn't make the mistake.

destro tanks were on the whole far tankier on average than their order alternatives

Why do people say that so often? Kotbs is by far the best Tank in the whole game. IB is also very strong, and for a long time, BO was considered the worst Tank of all.
Yes, Chosen is a fine tank, but to say he is tankier than a Kotbs is not true. You know that they have ! 50% ! DMG reduction on demand? for 10 seconds with a 30 seconds CD!
And I don't start with all their utility.
I'm not saying that Destro Tanks are all worse than Order's, but I would never dare say that Destro Tanks are by far tankier than their Order alternative.

I'm not even mad, but I don't understand why nobody acknowledges that Kotbs even got buffed with the last patches. And I don't want him to get nerfed or something because that is what the Kotbs is; the ultimate Tank and that is fine.

Also, there are so many posts about the bad state of Order lately, but they are doing so well in almost all aspects of the game.
They win the most cities, winning in LOTD lately, and get the most forts. the only thing that is not in their favor are the numbers, and even that is only a matter of time till the next turn of tides begins. I don't want to say that Order is overpowered or something; I'm only a bit confused why there are so many voices that say that the last patch broke Order while they almost win everything that matters.

Oh, and sorry, I didn't want to derail the original theme of the post. You have some legit concerns and are posting them in a fair manner.

Not anymore, they closed the gap with the recent patches but before. KOTBS had amazing grp utility but was the squishiest tank in the game. You could barely get 50% block and its ini is low. And we won LOTD recently because guild leaders who I won't mention had been banned, reducing Destro's short term capability to fight back in an organised fashion.

Apologise for the slight derailment, we're back on top now .

Kotbs ?had? amazing group utility? like, they stole all of it and didn't even get more with the resend patches? Even with the last patch, no single Tank gets barely close to the utility machine that the Kotbs is. The squishiest tank in the game? Chosen have the lowest block value of all Tanks because he is the only Tank class without any ability to increase block. His ini values are also not the highest. His lack of block is only covered with more parry. And all of that is only valuable if block and ini = better Tank for you. I'm sure you are aware of most of this.

For the topic, I think the real elefant in the room is still blobing and this problem can't be solved through ability changes without deep cuts. Abilities like GTDC wouldn't seem to be so dramatically unfair if they occurred in normal wb vs. wb fights. The sheer number of players in one spot makes it almost impossible to always have good positioning. A far better solution would be to break the blob through rewards with a better RvR mechanic, more reasons to split warbands for different points of interest, et cetera. LOTD is a nice example. I'm not sure if it would be so nice to balance for blobs instead of "normal" wb vs. wb fights.

[Rotgut]

For Destro to successfully perform the counter-defence it requires a FTWK bg in EVERY party that may be attacked by the enemy blob.
As a result:
1. It limits Destro's warband class options (by practically enforcing a Chosen+ FTWK Bg duo for Meta comps)
2. It promotes defensive use of FTWK (save it for when the ID train starts) vs free use of WW for Order (use it whenever you want to apply pressure)
3. It may even promote a similar class diversity issue on Order, where Kotbs + WW SM are stacked with Slayers in every party.

To summarize:
- Having to change party/warband composition to a great degree to counter just a single ability is bad game design and should be avoided at any cost.
- Having to change faction-wide class builds to a great degree to counter just a single ability is an even worse game design (and the reason I'm glad old Rampage got rightfully changed)

While I didn't want to detract from the original topic, I believe many of the things we have discussed here are also relevant to possible balancing of other issues, like for the CC discussion. For that reason I decided to keep the conversation going. I hope neither the Author of the post or the people reading it mind this (imo needed) detour.

I'll start with the Summary first - i agree with both points. I do miss how Old Rampage imposed a different timing to both factions (Destro stronger on contact, Order stronger when Rampage is up, Destro stronger again when their faster morales kick in) but besides that yeah, it was garbage how it forced Order to run so many slayers (and how CF forced Destro to run 4 Choppas and 4 Shammy).

I agree with point 3, because i think IB isn't on the same lvl as SM and doesn't have a good enough kit that would force Order to choose between Tanks like how Destro has to do with BG and Blorc.

I don't agree that WW has free use. Atm, since ID is bugged, for Order its primarily a healing spell. You use it so AMs can spam EoV, Order's best WB Healing spell. When ID Spam gets fixed then it might go back to being a choice, and FTWK will be exclusively defensive (for Cleanse and FotG) unless Destro runs more mSH i think? Besides them, is anyone else super dependent on CD reduction, so it makes BG choose between using them for pressure or for healing?

And i think you're undervaluing the cost of not fielding We'z Bigger on your first point. If Destro Leaders have to choose between being more defensive with BGs, or more offensive with Blorcs, i think it will be a good place for Balance to be. Do you want to deny Slayer's ID Spam or rush Order's Healer with buffed MS and free Immunity? And that is assuming ID Spam will be the meta again. Fielding less WLs has a cost too, their AoE interrupt is huge and they have a proper M2 (which SLs do not). On theory at least. Maybe ID Spamming is as essential as Stompin' + GTDC stacking, or how procs were (or is? haven't played since the proc nerf), and there will be very little choices to be made regarding comps.

And i'll wrap it up by pointing out that none of this matters until Blobwarfare™ is dealt with.

[BoriqOne]

DESTRO players, here.....play order for a year.... yes a year....you'll understand. Not xrealm for a bit a day or two. take in the pain, play Order ....you'll understand. you'll run faster than i have to Destro than an eye can blink. and yes Destro tanks are tankier, they are beasts, 1v1 unkillable even, KOTBS, lol....it can't harm any lil git. plah eeez. SM are extinct, they got nerfed to high elf heaven. who plays that gimped elf. Order is now mostly WL and their lions don't work, lmao WTH !! Destro you guys got it goooood. i know i am Destro now, freaking EZ mode.

[BoriqOne]

At present, 80%of the bad players and leisure players now, never learn better, complain in the forum every day. Essence So many good players have quit the game。

NO Order characters, hmmm. the complaining is legit, but try Order for a year,..... enjoy.

[Vaul]

The usual words of wisdom from Mr. Rotgut and imo the most (only?) unbiased post so far.

I am interested what you make of the OP and Aoe CC discussed in the thread?

[normanis]

replace bw aoe knock back to aoe knock down. mara already have aoe interupt

[CyunUnderis]

I agree with point 3, because i think IB isn't on the same lvl as SM and doesn't have a good enough kit that would force Order to choose between Tanks like how Destro has to do with BG and Blorc.

To me, this is where the Balance Team partially failed because they wanted that S/B BO & BG become more popular in WB (where before you had 4 Chosens 3 or 2 BO 2 or 1 BG).
But now, with We'z Bigger + 6 sc both immunities and the CD reduction skills being nerfed (10sc duration for 30sc CD) and if you add the proc meta on top of that where you avoid Shaman for DoK, you have almost no reason to run BG (and Chosen).
In fact, a better composition will be 7 or 6 BO - 1 Chosen (for debuff heal & debuff resist auras) - 1 or 0 BG (if Shaman and MSH). Fights are too shorts, it is all about go in and go out fast or go in and do a maximum of damage without getting CCed, so 12sc immunities + 30% speed is perfect for that (and BO brings good tools like party absorbs, AoE snare, Morale Pump, ...).

So, to me, BG or BO is a false choice : you'll almost always choose BO and rarelly BG (or Chosen).

And strangely, I find that it is more complicated to decide between tanks on the Order side.

I think it will essentially depend on the DPS composition (Slayer Riposte or WL/BW or RDPS).

For example, with a Slayer Riposte composition, having IB is essential (AP pump + % Parry). But what about the 2nd tank? SM or Knight? Knight is always a safe bet with his auras, the reduction of critical damage for the group, the healing buff for the group, ... But having 6sc of immunities in a fight can make the difference and with the correction of bugs on ID (waiting for deployment), the WW will increase in value. In addition, the SM provides fluff healing which is not negligible in Zerg vs Zerg. When we tried as a 12-men this kind of composition, we did 2 IB + 2 Knight, but I'm pretty sure you can do something really good with IB/SM.

For a BW/WL composition, starting with an SM can be very interesting to combine it with an AM moral pump and arrive very quickly in M2. And why not go on 2 x SM per group? Once again, the absence of the Knight can be compensated (fluff heal, debuff resist including elemental, 12 sc immunities, 2 x CD Reducer - if full Sovereign, ...).

[Bozzax]

1. Order and dest aren’t mirrors
2. CoC is dest only , mrd aoe kd is dest only
3. Order has other strengths

The claim is it is harder playing order healer.
This is bc of cc

I’d like to point out population and playing mostly on a numerically weaker side has a much greater impact than cc for heals (at leas in my opinion). Cctv is a great add on for having a clue about how often doks actually snare you and if those translates to deaths. Gtdc is free immunity if you ask me

There are simply more dest that push order back lines and when I play order healer blob this at least for me is why i think it sometimes feels harder

Equal numbers I actually feel more exposed as dest bc of the higher burst and spikes of order realm

RvR Kills 0h to 23h over the last 2 days
Total Kills: Order: 9587 Destruction: 9230

RoR T2+ Population Balance (homepage) 0h to 23h over the last 2 days Order 46.9% Destruction 53.1%