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Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

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Lisutaris
Posts: 65

Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#1 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:12 pm

Dear balancing and developer team,
First of all, thank you for the whole work and time that you put in this game and that we as Warhammer fans have a game to enjoy.

Now the idea including explanations:
In my view, the roadmap makes sense and gives us some transparency. However, I personally are not sure whether the decision on balancing is the right one.

As you already emphasized in the "Ability Recwork", it was primarily about simplifying things so that you can improve/adapt it faster afterwards.

In my view, you should also tackle this in the classes and balancing.
There are many classes that are not only similar but actually play completely the same. Of course, some skills are distributed differently, not only on the mirror-classes of the other faction, but also spread over other classes. (let's say heal debuff, wounds buff for grp and many many more)

Therefore, it might be an idea to completely mirrorthese classes and "simplify" them first. Same goes for Sets (Boni) or let's say Fortress Weapons.
If f.e. Dok and WP are completely identical, there is no longer a balance problem here. Of course there are a few differences, but if you compare this, create a list of what has been taken away or added to compensate for it and which buffs/debuffs are overall available on this class now.
As soon as it is completely "Balanced" in terms of mirroring, there is little to complain about. Then you can add special skills and improve the class identity. For example, that a DOK increases the group damage % and a WP reduces the incoming damage %. Just as an example.

Actually, this works entirely for all classes in Ror, since they are not so different at all.
The only exception are Squigherder VS Shadowwarrior and Marauder VS White Lion. I would only tackle and adapt these four classes at the end. Since everything else is mirrored and more or less balanced (mostly mirrored by then). That means only 4 variables would be left for complete balance.
Then you have a good starting point in order to be able to make further changes and to be able to value the class identity more.

(Example KOTS/Chosen Auras > give them good icons/names but make them do the same. Just give let's say -x% inc healing and (enemy) + x% healing done (friends) to both classes as an aura. Boom, balanced. You can add fancy class identity stuff later <3 )
I don't really see any other way for a balance team to get things done right as you have to keep in mind soooo many minor stuff and everything is a chaotic mix right now, which will most likely make it impossible to really balance it anyway. But best of luck 8-)

In this context, since many players are always happy when they see a complete group consisting of Greenskins or Dark Elves (ofc also on order races), one could even give such groups a buff, as soon as this baseline for balancing has been created.
That would mix up the meta setups a bit and will make, let's say, two blackguards and two Doks more useful in the same party.
Like Adding A Buff With Having 4-6 Members of the Same Race in A Grp.
"For the Witch King-> Increases All Your Stats BY 5%-7%-10% depending on the number of Dark Elves in Grp.
These numbers and bonuses are just an idea and serve for better description/visualization. Which bonuses are possible is of course among the Developers and the Balance Team to decide.
However, it would promote more group diversity (meta setup wise) and also support the RP aspect of the game.

So now you can burn me for these ideas and shame me <3
(I believe in our RoR Team and hope for the best, it's just that I have wished it would go into that direction first (> see above) and that instead of having the big monster of a project, a kinda simplified baseline first.)

EDIT: Forgot to add:
The idea of also looking at small scale or even 1on1 or roaming, balance wise, is nice yes ... but you should only focus on one thing right now and not make it more chaotic as it is. Therefore, please balance around warbands or 6man grps first as a priority.

These are only suggestions and ideas and ofc by no means negative/critizizing or whatever. You should = I would do this (nothing more , nothing less). Context wise.
~~ Guildleader of Entropy and Chaos ~~

Rhyshara - DoK || Rhykera - Sorc || Rhyleth - BG || Sharaye - WE
Destro only <3

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands

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Alubert
Posts: 332

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#2 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:14 pm

Never.
If you want accurate mirrors play GW2, TESO, WoW.
RoR is as unique as DAoC in this regard.
Ror community is quite conservative in this regard. Including me.
Hurub Chopa 80+ / Wybrany Chosen 80+ / Mroczniak BG 60+ / Alubercik BO 50+ / Doczek DoK 80+ / Hurubek Zeal 80+ /
Misio Shaman 80+ / Maxra Mara 60+ / Alubertus RP 70+ / Alubert KTB 80+ / Mnich WP 60+ / Kregi SL 60+ / Uposledzonyjez IB 40+

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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#3 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:24 pm

I do not understand why you think homogenization will make for different meta setups. If anything it seems like it will cement metas even more.

Asymmetry, while making balancing difficult, also provide opportunities for creating new interesting niches.

IMO the "balance" efforts went off the rails when they tried to make every class "warband viable". It is okay for some classes to be best in warband and some to be best in 6-man and even some to be best *gasp* solo.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#4 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:26 pm

Alubert wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:14 pm Never.
If you want accurate mirrors play GW2, TESO, WoW.
RoR is as unique as DAoC in this regard.
Ror community is quite conservative in this regard. Including me.
You forgot to mention Star Wars: The Old Republic which was essentially made by the same folks as this game (and has the same mechanics re guard, challenge, healing, etc). It is actually an example of what mirroring would look like here.

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Emissary
Community Management
Posts: 331

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#5 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:27 pm

In my very humble opinion, the diversity of classes is what draws me to this game. To take the classes and literally cut them in half is so beyond mind blowing I couldnt even imagine a scenario where it would be a good thing.

I hear people all the time saying mirror classes. There is no such thing in this game and was not the intention of the creators of this game. The idea that all classes are 33% of another factions class is a great way to look at it (not completly accurate anymore, but close). In my opinion there should be the same amount of snares, CC, debuffs, or whatever on each faction; however those should be spread out differently.

Again my opinion.
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Lisutaris
Posts: 65

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#6 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:31 pm

I agree completely in keeping that class identity, I just think it would be better to simplify/reduce it first for balancing and improving that part later again and also in a more simple way, read below.
I think my intention behind this wasn't explained well enough by me. Sorry for that.
It was mentioned as a good idea/starting point to aim for that IN THE BEGINNING to further improve class identity, unique stuff LATER.
I have never talked about taking class identity away for good, its quite the opposite.
If you have to pay attention to every tiny little detail because everything is crazy chaotic, you won't have a good time doing balancing. That's the idea behind it. Also keep in mind that this is no 30+ dev team but like ~2-3 ppl doing the balancing. We have to be realistic what and how it can be done. If they got the manpower I would just say, do it. Who cares about the amount of work that is needed. But this is not the case.

Please read or ask for clarification first. Also, what is "class identity" for you? Please explain that. As in my post/idea I wasn't talking about taking it away but adding that later, wheen everything got balanced (mirrored) to some good degree. What's the difference in warrior priest having wounds buff and dok having something for attacking compared to +def +attack buffs? Isn't it the same? Supporting the idea/role of that class ? I am pretty sure I went into details for that :D

Also keep in mind the idea of racial boni if a grp is full of the same race. That's identity for you. Imagine a Bitterstone Thunderers or Freebootaz Grp with a fancy buff that mitigates the negative effect of being a one race and RP guild. Why punish that? If we go the "immersion" and class/race identity way , that should make them even stronger :D

Regarding the "it got worse when they tried to make everything good for warbands" yes ... that's pretty much it. You have to either decide on making classes good for some specific stuff or going the full "everyone can do everything" way.... which got told that this is what will be done. Every class should have their WB role. There is not really a point to talk about this as the decision is already made, at least how I have understood that.
~~ Guildleader of Entropy and Chaos ~~

Rhyshara - DoK || Rhykera - Sorc || Rhyleth - BG || Sharaye - WE
Destro only <3

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands

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hogun
Posts: 295

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#7 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:11 pm

Emissary wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:27 pm In my very humble opinion, the diversity of classes is what draws me to this game. To take the classes and literally cut them in half is so beyond mind blowing I couldnt even imagine a scenario where it would be a good thing.

I hear people all the time saying mirror classes. There is no such thing in this game and was not the intention of the creators of this game. The idea that all classes are 33% of another factions class is a great way to look at it (not completly accurate anymore, but close). In my opinion there should be the same amount of snares, CC, debuffs, or whatever on each faction; however those should be spread out differently.

Again my opinion.
I completely agree, there has never been a mirror class, only mirror mechanics, but the players have just made a shortcut which is a mistake.
It would seem that some devs have also made the mistake.
because it's hard to understand when you give a stun to the BG to be like the IB. hard to understand when you nerfed the engineer's heal because the magus didn't have it. also why you gave sheilds to the DOC and the WP. and why a pounce to the SH and why an ID to the choppa...
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kakaonutella
Posts: 7

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#8 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:10 pm

Might be just me, but I believe we should separate classes even more, because they are too similar between factions.
Even go further, and make some unique to other faction won't have it - Yes i Know, this would make certain people stick more to one faction(hence reducing Xrealming problem) but for testing I would defo do that and see how it goes naturally.

I wanted to play in Order once, and I tried everything, but all I felt is "this doesn't look good visually, has a bad feel(in most, not all cases) and it's basically mirror of the other class ,or is too similar to it instead of being unique" - That was my feeling. Every friend I ever dragged here said the same.

To emphasize it again I don't say they are identical, but the amount of similarities is too big for me to unsee it.

Also, since in topic with balance - Do only I think that Magic deals too much dmg? I got a feeling that battles should last few seconds more to be more fun, while you can melt before you basically get close to people

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 990

Re: Idea for future balancing & incl. explaination why.

Post#9 » Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:36 pm

hogun wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:11 pm
Emissary wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:27 pm In my very humble opinion, the diversity of classes is what draws me to this game. To take the classes and literally cut them in half is so beyond mind blowing I couldnt even imagine a scenario where it would be a good thing.

I hear people all the time saying mirror classes. There is no such thing in this game and was not the intention of the creators of this game. The idea that all classes are 33% of another factions class is a great way to look at it (not completly accurate anymore, but close). In my opinion there should be the same amount of snares, CC, debuffs, or whatever on each faction; however those should be spread out differently.

Again my opinion.
I completely agree, there has never been a mirror class, only mirror mechanics, but the players have just made a shortcut which is a mistake.
It would seem that some devs have also made the mistake.
because it's hard to understand when you give a stun to the BG to be like the IB. hard to understand when you nerfed the engineer's heal because the magus didn't have it. also why you gave sheilds to the DOC and the WP. and why a pounce to the SH and why an ID to the choppa...
^^^^^^ This

Destro gets everything Order has but Order has 0 functional MDPS pulls.

It has gone from non-symmetrical to just plain non-balanced.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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