Engineer's ability : bugman's best triple nerfed.

[Dackjanielz]

What would be the benefits of bringing a "heal" support dps engie instead of a full heal or dps?

Don't get me wrong i would love to have a proper support class, because I'm not always in for the dps score hunt^^

I shall use this opportunity to declare my extra idea on top, a brand new tactic which transforms Blunderbuss blast into a Beerbus!

No longer does it do damage to the enemy it is now filled with bugmans and sprays amber nectar all over ye team m8s and heals them! Do it ye Wazzocks!

Nah but seriously i would be perfectly fine adding what is essentially a 4th Healer/Tank to the game through a build. I dunno about Destro but order is constantly short of support classes so why not?

[hogun]

It was unacceptable when it was first nerfed, it was clearly to please certain players who had cried about the group we had made with thorbolt.
This technique that we used to have an ADD heal existed on the Aor. we hadn't invented anything (cumulation of ingé+ib for buff will and guard).
However, the devs of this server listened to the cry-baby who hadn't managed to compensate for a static hot of 300hp/3s/ingé.
Yes it was fun but it was never OP. it just frustrated bad players.
nerf the engineer is incomprehensible. why not nerf the BO heal, the SM heal, the Magus single heal, the dok dps, the marau hot?

If you want logs to see the truth, I can supply them!

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

[Zxul]

However, the devs of this server listened to the cry-baby who hadn't managed to compensate for a static hot of 300hp/3s/ingé.
Yes it was fun but it was never OP. it just frustrated bad players.

Problem is when you get 5 engies in same spot, and then its 1500 hp/3s instead.

nerf the engineer is incomprehensible. why not nerf the BO heal, the SM heal, the Magus single heal, the dok dps, the marau hot?

All of those heals are party only or self only, unlike engi pre nerf one. And dok dps was nerfed, several times.

[hogun]

However, the devs of this server listened to the cry-baby who hadn't managed to compensate for a static hot of 300hp/3s/ingé.
Yes it was fun but it was never OP. it just frustrated bad players.

Problem is when you get 5 engies in same spot, and then its 1500 hp/3s instead.

nerf the engineer is incomprehensible. why not nerf the BO heal, the SM heal, the Magus single heal, the dok dps, the marau hot?

All of those heals are party only or self only, unlike engi pre nerf one. And dok dps was nerfed, several times.

to do that you need spec Tinkerer. and its a Statique Hot ...no move for 15s ans syncronised your heal.

the reality Brother, you heal more in grp with a BO and a SM with the good spec who can heal some time more than bad healer! ( look UQS)
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d8d3713e79

Remember with 1 healer you heal more than 10 engi.( 2500 hp/2,5s juste for Heal grp RP) .
and play 5 engies or 10 engies its not OP , its juste fun !

why nerf the fun ?

[normanis]

well as engi i dont mind if i have rough hp increase as magus have.
p.s years ago some mentioned make brew into morale builder for grp. x morale per y sec

[leftayparxoun]

I will try to go in depth with the problem with out of party (oop) stacking and I will try to showcase what each approach to making it work has in favour and against it:

• Full out of party heal:

This means that the healing applied in the area scales linearly. Having 6 kegs in place for example would lead to ~1800 heal/3s. That is equivalent to another healer spamming their AOE cast heal for all affected people in the area. In comparison, WP's Martyr's Blessing heals for 300/s with a 23% uptime (3s/13s) vs Engi's 100/s with 88% uptime (15s/(15+2)s). Not to mention that WPs cannot do any other actions while they are channelling that ability.

Pros:
-Fun for the Engies
-Easy implementation
-Easy server computation

Cons:
-Even with a 24target-cap, stacking Engies would lead to VERY strong out of warband support parties (that would most likely break rvr balance)

• Constant, low oop heal:

To avoid the above issue, one solution would be to make the oop heal value be a lot lower than the in-party heal value. To properly balance it, in the case of 24target cap, you'd probably aim for a oop heal coefficient between 5% and 20% (15 to 60 heal).

Pros:
-Easy implementation
-Fairly easy server computation (1 extra calculation to check whether the heal comes from an in-part Engi or not)

Cons:
- Numbers may be too low for the ability to be enjoyable (low number spam on screen)
- Nearly useless unless stacked

• Full oop heal with value cap system:

Another solution would be to make the oop heal value cap system. As I will soon show, the major limitation here is the additional complexity this adds in terms of in game calculations. Therefore, simple value cap systems are prioritized.
The simplest would be a softcap system, similar to the Morale damage system that is active now (https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/Morale) where the softcap is based on a decaying meter system. You can imagine a similar approach for Bugman's Best where oop healing is allowed, but after reaching a specific heal value (e.g. 900) which decays by a certain amount every second (100/s) the healing coefficient from the same ability would be reduced (to around 5% - 10% of incoming value).

Pros:
- Fun for Engies, since it can impact on both party and oop/wb.
- Balanced, based on the specialized softcap system

Cons:
- Depending on timing (when the decaying/s value is deducted) you could see only some of the Engies actually heal people --> unfair heal contribution (relevant for zone contribution and in-game killboard)
- Hard computation (2 extra calculations: Constantly-updating individual decaying heal value compared to softcap for all players affected and check on each heal for whether to apply the reduced coefficient or not) --> potential server strain and lag on big fights (?)
- In case you'd like to differentiate between party and oop engineer healing (maybe so as to eliminate the first con) even more checks and flags are required.
- Potentially hard implementation (too much effort for a single ability?)

[hogun]

I will try to go in depth with the problem with out of party (oop) stacking and I will try to showcase what each approach to making it work has in favour and against it:

• Full out of party heal:

This means that the healing applied in the area scales linearly. Having 6 kegs in place for example would lead to ~1800 heal/3s. That is equivalent to another healer spamming their AOE cast heal for all affected people in the area. In comparison, WP's Martyr's Blessing heals for 300/s with a 23% uptime (3s/13s) vs Engi's 100/s with 88% uptime (15s/(15+2)s). Not to mention that WPs cannot do any other actions while they are channelling that ability.

1 :
who have 6kegs in his WB ? only bitterstone and Dammaz Kron( no wb for us but we have a 12 and more than 6 engi) , no organised WB have 6 keg because ingie is not the choice for organised WB ... BW, WL, Sl have always the preference.
if you give a 300hp/3s keg 24 target , do you think the engi became the great choice for WB ? no. because in AOR the engi have the skill and he never be the better choice ! he was in fact the least good choice
2 :
its true Bitterstone and Dammaz kron guilde can imagine full Keg team ...But is its Op vs 2/2/2 wb ? no .
can it be strong ? yes you can be tanky if you have a lot of engi.... but only role play /fun wb have a lot of engie

the day we nerfed the engineer for his heal was a day against players who play something different than metagames !

[leftayparxoun]

I will try to go in depth with the problem with out of party (oop) stacking and I will try to showcase what each approach to making it work has in favour and against it:

• Full out of party heal:

This means that the healing applied in the area scales linearly. Having 6 kegs in place for example would lead to ~1800 heal/3s. That is equivalent to another healer spamming their AOE cast heal for all affected people in the area. In comparison, WP's Martyr's Blessing heals for 300/s with a 23% uptime (3s/13s) vs Engi's 100/s with 88% uptime (15s/(15+2)s). Not to mention that WPs cannot do any other actions while they are channelling that ability.

1 :
who have 6kegs in his WB ? only bitterstone and Dammaz Kron( no wb for us but we have a 12 and more than 6 engi) , no organised WB have 6 keg because ingie is not the choice for organised WB ... BW, WL, Sl have always the preference.
if you give a 300hp/3s keg 24 target , do you think the engi became the great choice for WB ? no. because in AOR the engi have the skill and he never be the better choice ! he was in fact the least good choice
2 :
its true Bitterstone and Dammaz kron guilde can imagine full Keg team ...But is its Op vs 2/2/2 wb ? no .
can it be strong ? yes you can be tanky if you have a lot of engi.... but only role play /fun wb have a lot of engie

the day we nerfed the engineer for his heal was a day against players who play something other than metagames !

I never mentioned anything about Engineers in warbands. In my first example I was refering to the scenario where a 6man of engineers following another warband would equate to ~1800 heal/3s for 3/4 parties of that wb if Bugman's best had full oop heal effectiveness (and 24man cap).
Engies would still probably not be wanted in warbands, but they'd make incredibly strong support parties following said warbands while also doing their own thing. Way better than 6 WPs at least.

[hogun]

that's true, but mainly in combat without moving,

finaly its a little impact on the game. for all those who have played on the AoR, we all know that this is absolutely not gamebreaker. it creates it's true a little more interest in engineering, creates team Bizard, which in my opinion is interesting for the game. but nothing more.
and if the question is : yes but destruction doesn't have this choice. it's also true. but destruction has a lot of things that order doesn't have and in my eyes it's a good thing.

and personally I militate for 9 targets for AEs, and for Kegs

[Dackjanielz]

As it currently stands we can have 6 warrior priests all doing Marty's blessing or spamming divine strike, but for some reason Kegs doing it is considered OP?

Come on man.