[Ironbreaker] Blood of Grimnir - are you using it? How are you finding it?

[tazdingo]

great post
i think an enhanced shield sweep could ease a lot of IB's issues, removing the shield requirement and lowering the grudge cost. abilities like smite and essence lash add a great rhythm to gameplay that i think would complement the fact that playing this class already feels like performing a concerto
of course it couldn't be called shield sweep anymore

[Gargis]

" Man Giving WW to BG i really want to hear the explanation why they get 2h KD and WW. Originally bg didnt get either of those, obviously because longest punt, longest and only 5s Kd in the game."

S/B BG is miles ahead of S/B IBs now, I have each RR 80. Its not just the one thing, but giving WW equivalent to this class has to be Dev bias or complete ignorance.

With the BG I can use a 5s KD and less so on the punt, because its more situational and bring them up faster with FtWK. Hate is np on BG compared to grudge on the IB.

The true pearl of the class is outgoing heal-debuff not on cd, coupled with other debuffs. There is no way that a WP will ever get it off bar a RP with Swift Runes tactics, but even then I can force the RP's hand, cleanse or heal. Adamant will only take you so far.

Add the toughness debuff if you need it, interrupt and ap drain, and anti-crit like the IB and it plays and "feels" much smoother than the IB. All the while doing damage, whereas many of the IB buff do no damage and you lose CD allocation. Why was HB nerfed again?

The new IB skill BoG is a freaking Grudge hog even guarding mdps in the grinder. Worse, you have to hold it too long to make sure that you get the needed grudge to get a proper armor debuff out, as well as Knee-capper.

But there is more, and most ppl never talk about it or are not aware. Since the Slayer nerf to rampage, even if they tried to make the Strike Through equivalent to both factions and for the purposes of argument, say that it is, there is a huge disparity between the factions tanks which were not addressed and I have to conclude its no accident, because perusing the Career Builder, one would have been aware of it.

They are as follows; Flawless Armor, Terrifying Foe, and Green-skin racial. Those tactics were in game as a hard counter to Rampage and now that it watered down to hell, there is no reason that Destro tanks should have them as is.

The amount of anti-crit and toughenss that Chosens and BGs can have can not be matched on Order tanks ever. The Greenskin tactic gives them the latitude to spec in ways that SM can not.

This patch has been a disaster for Order tanks bar the Knight with DC tactic, but only applicable in s/b builds.

Markedly disappointed in this patch and with commentary associated with it.

[Detangler]

"

The true pearl of the class is outgoing heal-debuff not on cd, coupled with other debuffs. There is no way that a WP will ever get it off bar a RP with Swift Runes tactics, but even then I can force the RP's hand, cleanse or heal. Adamant will only take you so far.

One thing to note about the difference between BG 'no cooldown outgoing heal debuff' vs. IB '5 second cooldown outgoing heal debuff: On Order side the WP can group cleanse away your outgoing heal debuff, while on Destro the DoK cannot cleanse your outgoing heal debuff at all. 2 WPs who are on top of group cleansing constantly means your 'no cooldown outgoing HD' gets wiped pretty quickly, while the IB faces cleanser abilities that are on the same 5 second cooldown. The disparity isn't quite as bad as it looks if you delve a bit deeper into how it all interacts with each other.

[GONDOR]

"

The true pearl of the class is outgoing heal-debuff not on cd, coupled with other debuffs. There is no way that a WP will ever get it off bar a RP with Swift Runes tactics, but even then I can force the RP's hand, cleanse or heal. Adamant will only take you so far.

One thing to note about the difference between BG 'no cooldown outgoing heal debuff' vs. IB '5 second cooldown outgoing heal debuff: On Order side the WP can group cleanse away your outgoing heal debuff, while on Destro the DoK cannot cleanse your outgoing heal debuff at all. 2 WPs who are on top of group cleansing constantly means your 'no cooldown outgoing HD' gets wiped pretty quickly, while the IB faces cleanser abilities that are on the same 5 second cooldown. The disparity isn't quite as bad as it looks if you delve a bit deeper into how it all interacts with each other.

I'm not sure I understand your point - it's (not that strong) because (perfect counter scenario) exists? A BG could WotLK a shammy to give AOE cleanse no CD vs the IB outgoing HD, which is buffed with an SM from WW for zero CD?

[nocturnalguest]

Healthy reasonable bias mostly from solo yolo perspective

No mate, it doesnt work like that.
Rising Anger people often mention on forum is only a solo pick. If you slot it somewhere else you are doing it wrong as for 2h group play you pick dwarven riposte and for large scale SnB there is no need for grudge gain tactic.
Spenders usage policy you mention is not anyhow connected with reality, you cant and dont sit at 100 not spending it.
Damage numbers assuming no other class has such high scaled values would be totally out of any sane control if you are allowed to ride on 100 grudge.
And imagine how this match would look like if IB would be constantly at 100 grudge (while in reality grudge gain with dwarven riposte is so big in proper match that you are quite easily reach 100 tbf) - https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 4bd019abff
You can also e.g. track Oathmeal regular SCs and be same way amused.

I warn you guys, stop this lobby - all you will achieve if you continue this total bias is just randomly attract unneccesary ror team attention and get what you asked for in most horrible way, with huge downscale of each damaging ability. It will be worst possible execution - you will be constantly at 100 but everything else would be untied from it (because everything comes with a price you know, huh), so being at 100 would mean nothing.

I know for sure that its very frustrating to look at "what is possible at high level play" vs. "what random joe usually achieves", but this complexity is one of IBs identity that has to be protected for greater good.

Earthshatter you mention is not only aoe slow, but hard hitting finisher to interrupt GBF burst. Making it more accesable further increase deadliness of IB rotation by alot.

Im also sad for GnM be gone and its either not coming back at all unless balance team changes or comes back being useless crap, but my reasons are different, its not because it being a cool solo tool, but because it breaks longterm settled role of SnB AP battery for meta. In terms of soloing, you still can do 13-5-5 in regen gear, or do whatever with 7 warlord + 2 vic/triumph. Your bias makes some sense only for soloing which is not how balance should be done.
And then i say bias i dont mean its something bad, im biased as well, i like solo&pug too but in discussions we have to look at much bigger picture.

[Farrul]

No mate, it doesnt work like that.
Rising Anger people often mention on forum is only a solo pick. If you slot it somewhere else you are doing it wrong as for 2h group play you pick dwarven riposte and for large scale SnB there is no need for grudge gain tactic.

Have you even played the class recently

Then you would know about the GCD change attached to grudge that has crippled Ironbreaker grudge gains.

BG recieved the same hatred GCD nerf however they are able to deal with it a lot better due to superior resource regeneration. If this HUGE nerf remains IB is just a shadow of its former self.

The ability rework has been a disaster to the Ironbreaker class.

As of right know Grumble and mutter would be useless to have back since we do not have enough resources to make good use of it anyway in any smaller scale situation ( where this ability made sense).

Not to mention Grumble n Mutter was nerfed prior to its removal so it was a lot less useful anyway.

To give you an example, no Rising Anger is not only for solo play anymore, unless i slot Rising + Dwarven Riposte i can't do any real damage in scenarios, 12 men groups or whatever, it's that bad. Rising Anger has become mandatory for any IB that whish to perform reasonable well using 2H whereas previously to ability rework it was optional ( as should be).

From a pure solo perspective: Even with Rising Anger i can't do anything vs casters, IB is no longer solo viable imho unless you're fighting only choppas/melee.

Tl:dr At this point i do not even care about GnM , HB nerf too bad. GCD nerf to grudge gain is a disease.


P.S. Here is the appropriate thread for this abominable nerf.
viewtopic.php?t=52570

[nocturnalguest]

Have you even played the class recently

Then you would know about the GCD change attached to grudge that has crippled Ironbreaker grudge gains.

BG recieved the same hatred GCD nerf however they are able to deal with it a lot better due to superior resource regeneration. If this HUGE nerf remains IB is just a shadow of its former self.

The ability rework has been a disaster to the Ironbreaker class.

As of right know Grumble and mutter would be useless to have back since we do not have enough resources to make good use of it anyway in any smaller scale situation ( where this ability made sense).

Not to mention Grumble n Mutter was nerfed prior to its removal so it was a lot less useful anyway.

To give you an example, no Rising Anger is not only for solo play anymore, unless i slot Rising + Dwarven Riposte i can't do any real damage in scenarios, 12 men groups or whatever, it's that bad. Rising Anger has become mandatory for any IB that whish to perform reasonable well using 2H whereas previously to ability rework it was optional ( as should be).

From a pure solo perspective: Even with Rising Anger i can't do anything vs casters, IB is no longer solo viable imho unless you're fighting only choppas/melee.

Tl:dr At this point i do not even care about GnM , HB nerf too bad. GCD nerf to grudge gain is a disease.


P.S. Here is the appropriate thread for this abominable nerf.
viewtopic.php?t=52570

I will be absolutely honest with you answering your first question - no, not really, i stopped mid/late feb and even before that havent been very active on IB. Thank you for mentioning this point that i clearly missed out to mention here in my speech, i do support this adjustment has to be gone (or be tweaked to be treated like procs with 0,25) for both BG&IB, of that im absolutely sure.
But, im well aware GCD for grudges was recently introduced and i figured it as soon as they changed GBF scaling and i logged to compare my old data archieves with new reality (to find out changes are pretty minor beside 10% armor penetration). So once i slotted rising anger to get grudges to hit dummies i noticed it. I was also curious to find out if Rising Anger actually affects GBF because before that patch it wasnt doing anything on channel, thankfully thats fixed.

However tho, i cant grasp disaster collapse you are describing in this regards. Dwarven Riposte still nets you +30 per 3 seconds (and tops you in no time thru guard dmg), you still have gains from oathfriend and from being hit but now everything per GCD. All in all it does overally reduce grudge gains but i cant see world collapse because of that. Not to a point to run both rising anger and dwarven riposte.

What i managed to do before going MIA late feb was:
a) to run in wb as snb (felt bad and nerfed cause i miss ap battery with gnm, bog irrelevant and stupid to spec there)
b) pug some sc with 13-5-5 spec in regen gear (with rising anger btw, was fine)
c) pug + solo roam a bit with 7 warlord + 2 vic (and rising anger slotted) with 13-0-13 spec (felt bad, bog is crap), then swap for 11-5-9 spec (was ok)
d) do some weekend warfront with friends as 3-6 (mostly below 6, and not even once it was proper comp) in different gear and specs (with dwarven riposte always, gear and builds ive been changing, bog felt useless, rest was just as it was before, more or less)

Yeah it feels pretty clunky with grudge GCD, but not a nightmare you point out. I admit that i havent done any competetive action back then where it has more value and could be felt deeper. However my limited mostly pugging experience didnt make me feel this change is gamebreaking, ive noticed it being inconvenient.
And actually, a question, what gear you run usually, how much parry do you generally have that you claim dwarven riposte is not nets you enough resources in e.g. regular SCs? And how often do you run parry buff?

[Detangler]

"

The true pearl of the class is outgoing heal-debuff not on cd, coupled with other debuffs. There is no way that a WP will ever get it off bar a RP with Swift Runes tactics, but even then I can force the RP's hand, cleanse or heal. Adamant will only take you so far.

One thing to note about the difference between BG 'no cooldown outgoing heal debuff' vs. IB '5 second cooldown outgoing heal debuff: On Order side the WP can group cleanse away your outgoing heal debuff, while on Destro the DoK cannot cleanse your outgoing heal debuff at all. 2 WPs who are on top of group cleansing constantly means your 'no cooldown outgoing HD' gets wiped pretty quickly, while the IB faces cleanser abilities that are on the same 5 second cooldown. The disparity isn't quite as bad as it looks if you delve a bit deeper into how it all interacts with each other.

I'm not sure I understand your point - it's (not that strong) because (perfect counter scenario) exists? A BG could WotLK a shammy to give AOE cleanse no CD vs the IB outgoing HD, which is buffed with an SM from WW for zero CD?

To be quite honest, I forgot they decided to give Shams a minor group cleanse (50 foot range of target) vs 100 foot range around caster for DOK/WP. My point which still holds up somewhat is that if you want to hit multiple healers with your no cooldown outgoing heal debuff, Order has healing classes that can easily cleanse it from 2 + healers in the same group.

You can also play theorycrafting with a WW SM giving IB a cooldown so they can spam their outgoing heal debuff, too. There's counters to counters, and both IB and BG outgoing heal debuffs shine quite well from their respective sides.

[Gargis]

"One thing to note about the difference between BG 'no cooldown outgoing heal debuff' vs. IB '5 second cooldown outgoing heal debuff: On Order side the WP can group cleanse away your outgoing heal debuff, while on Destro the DoK cannot cleanse your outgoing heal debuff at all. 2 WPs who are on top of group cleansing constantly means your 'no cooldown outgoing HD' gets wiped pretty quickly, while the IB faces cleanser abilities that are on the same 5 second cooldown. The disparity isn't quite as bad as it looks if you delve a bit deeper into how it all interacts with each other."

Actually, its not even if they bring 2 WPs which would be foolish because they would lose out on RP protection and AM EOV. With no CD on MK, I can keep it up always even on double WP grps.

But its worse for Double WP groups because they owned hard by squigs and mara aliment stacks with Aliment heal debuffs. Couple that with MK up time of 100% and that group dies very fast.

You have to know that RPs can't the BG HD so Swift Rune tactic will not help them. WP and AMs can. So even if I face a balanced healing group, advantage still goes to the BG. Why because I can sit on any healer and keep MK up 100% of the time.

Even if they try to go WW to cleanse it off, sorry not going to help, I can still keep it up by reapplying it on CD and force them to decide, cleanse or heal. If they cleanse, they not healing and Destro wins.

The best tank in the game is the BG, there is no contest. It has all the strengths and no weakness and with FtWK its even better.

With the slayer nerf to rampage, they are no longer a threat to any Desto tank because the Devs did not touch the Vastly superior tactics. Which were the hard counter and adequate before the nerf.

Using TF tactic and 100 hate I'm at 1150 toughness and keep far more avoidance than before. Taunt Ret bomb as always and its yawn @ slayers.

All the crying about Rampage in the past was because bad Destro tanks went LOL dps spec and did not taunt Ret bombs. Sorry but that is the truth and I had no problem with slayers in proper groups in when my BG was in Conq.

[Gargis]

I misspoke earlier and need to clarify a point in a preceding post.

It was not the RP that can cleanse the HD, but rather the AM and even coupled with WW, there is nothing they can do to cleanse it off. They would have to spend every CD on cleansing and I would just reapply it.

That is fine by me because the AM has no GTAE and I will reapply it on CD. Eventually w/o a GTAE just AA damage and splash would kill that grp and force the AM to heal in the face and my HD. Win-Win for BG AGAIN!