[Ironbreaker] Blood of Grimnir - are you using it? How are you finding it?

[akisnaakkeli]

Yes i hope so too, but 6v6 is/was the only place where this ability may shine bright. Im not sure as a) i didnt test it myself b) havent seen proper data but seems to not be the case as well.

I have some info here, BoG wasn't a big consideration for anybody, except my full dawi party (that got absolutely smashed). You bring IB for the Parry and Crit buffs, Cave-in, and extra dmg a 2h tank has.

On a different point, I see a lot of comparison to BG which is fair, but i haven't seen people mention that Choppas has the same spell. But its free and 40% better. 13pt for a spell that buffs AS by 25%, while Choppas have an in-built 35% AS buff, i guess only makes sense if you're trying to balance out the other buffs IB has. BoG was a good idea on paper for ST parties, but only a SnB IB would ever grab it and going double 2h tanks seem better atm.

: D 25% AA haste and 25% AA dmg are significantly different things. I would use BoG if it was 9pts and 15 grudge.

[GONDOR]

Yes i hope so too, but 6v6 is/was the only place where this ability may shine bright. Im not sure as a) i didnt test it myself b) havent seen proper data but seems to not be the case as well.

I have some info here, BoG wasn't a big consideration for anybody, except my full dawi party (that got absolutely smashed). You bring IB for the Parry and Crit buffs, Cave-in, and extra dmg a 2h tank has.

On a different point, I see a lot of comparison to BG which is fair, but i haven't seen people mention that Choppas has the same spell. But its free and 40% better. 13pt for a spell that buffs AS by 25%, while Choppas have an in-built 35% AS buff, i guess only makes sense if you're trying to balance out the other buffs IB has. BoG was a good idea on paper for ST parties, but only a SnB IB would ever grab it and going double 2h tanks seem better atm.

: D 25% AA haste and 25% AA dmg are significantly different things. I would use BoG if it was 9pts and 15 grudge.

I would too tbh, though I'd push for less grudge. As much as changing it would be a nerf, I don't know why it's party-wide; kind of unusual for IB.

I think runic shield should be a core ability, it kind of sucks when you're a baby IB and all 3 of the first masteries you get are buffs buttons that don't increase your class agency. Moving Earthshatter down to 5 would be a pretty big shakeup and greatly improve the utility of the 13/5/5 2h spec too.

[akisnaakkeli]

I have some info here, BoG wasn't a big consideration for anybody, except my full dawi party (that got absolutely smashed). You bring IB for the Parry and Crit buffs, Cave-in, and extra dmg a 2h tank has.

On a different point, I see a lot of comparison to BG which is fair, but i haven't seen people mention that Choppas has the same spell. But its free and 40% better. 13pt for a spell that buffs AS by 25%, while Choppas have an in-built 35% AS buff, i guess only makes sense if you're trying to balance out the other buffs IB has. BoG was a good idea on paper for ST parties, but only a SnB IB would ever grab it and going double 2h tanks seem better atm.

: D 25% AA haste and 25% AA dmg are significantly different things. I would use BoG if it was 9pts and 15 grudge.

I would too tbh, though I'd push for less grudge. As much as changing it would be a nerf, I don't know why it's party-wide; kind of unusual for IB.

I think runic shield should be a core ability, it kind of sucks when you're a baby IB and all 3 of the first masteries you get are buffs buttons that don't increase your class agency. Moving Earthshatter down to 5 would be a pretty big shakeup and greatly improve the utility of the 13/5/5 2h spec too.

Agree on Runic Shield and Earthshatter 5pts. If BoG + Blorc version were 9 pts skills(make blorc KD core) i fould def use them in all 2h specs. But IB needs to have Rising Anger tactic part of the class itself so its not less smooth 3tactic BG. After those changes imo 2h IB would be in a good place. Change Told ya So tactic back to having infinite range and would grant 25ap to to your party everytime you critically hit enemy. IB gets 25% Crit with 1 skill and 1 tactic so it would flow good.

And 25 grudge cost is too much for KB UNLESS it has higher air or more range component with 100 grudge. 15Grudge cost for oathbound/ancestors fury as well would be better.

[Farrul]

: D 25% AA haste and 25% AA dmg are significantly different things. I would use BoG if it was 9pts and 15 grudge.

I would too tbh, though I'd push for less grudge. As much as changing it would be a nerf, I don't know why it's party-wide; kind of unusual for IB.

I think runic shield should be a core ability, it kind of sucks when you're a baby IB and all 3 of the first masteries you get are buffs buttons that don't increase your class agency. Moving Earthshatter down to 5 would be a pretty big shakeup and greatly improve the utility of the 13/5/5 2h spec too.

Agree on Runic Shield and Earthshatter 5pts. If BoG + Blorc version were 9 pts skills(make blorc KD core) i fould def use them in all 2h specs. But IB needs to have Rising Anger tactic part of the class itself so its not less smooth 3tactic BG. After those changes imo 2h IB would be in a good place. Change Told ya So tactic back to having infinite range and would grant 25ap to to your party everytime you critically hit enemy. IB gets 25% Crit with 1 skill and 1 tactic so it would flow good.

And 25 grudge cost is too much for KB UNLESS it has higher air or more range component with 100 grudge. 15Grudge cost for oathbound/ancestors fury as well would be better.

Tbh not even Rising Anger as core would fix the IB resource problems at the moment. Because of the gcd attached to grudge gains since the ability rework Ironbreaker is completely gimped at the moment, as 2H at least you need Rising Anger + dwarven riposte to even do any damage. We are like BGs now with 2 tactics available lol.

Seriously though what is worrying is if devs think IB is in a good spot and wont do more changes before they move on to other archetypes. In reality IB has never been this gimped before from what i can remember. I cant even play it in rvr anymore vs casters, only vs melee when dwarven riposte allows me to actually use the class -grudge- resource. Horrible situation poor IB.

[akisnaakkeli]

I would too tbh, though I'd push for less grudge. As much as changing it would be a nerf, I don't know why it's party-wide; kind of unusual for IB.

I think runic shield should be a core ability, it kind of sucks when you're a baby IB and all 3 of the first masteries you get are buffs buttons that don't increase your class agency. Moving Earthshatter down to 5 would be a pretty big shakeup and greatly improve the utility of the 13/5/5 2h spec too.

Agree on Runic Shield and Earthshatter 5pts. If BoG + Blorc version were 9 pts skills(make blorc KD core) i fould def use them in all 2h specs. But IB needs to have Rising Anger tactic part of the class itself so its not less smooth 3tactic BG. After those changes imo 2h IB would be in a good place. Change Told ya So tactic back to having infinite range and would grant 25ap to to your party everytime you critically hit enemy. IB gets 25% Crit with 1 skill and 1 tactic so it would flow good.

And 25 grudge cost is too much for KB UNLESS it has higher air or more range component with 100 grudge. 15Grudge cost for oathbound/ancestors fury as well would be better.

Tbh not even Rising Anger as core would fix the IB resource problems at the moment. Because of the gcd attached to grudge gains since the ability rework Ironbreaker is completely gimped at the moment, as 2H at least you need Rising Anger + dwarven riposte to even do any damage. We are like BGs now with 2 tactics available lol.

Seriously though what is worrying is if devs think IB is in a good spot and wont do more changes before they move on to other archetypes. In reality IB has never been this gimped before from what i can remember. I cant even play it in rvr anymore vs casters, only vs melee when dwarven riposte allows me to actually use the class -grudge- resource. Horrible situation poor IB.

Agreed that rising anger being core alone wouldnt fix IB to acceptable point, but if on top of that you would have the original version of Told ya so and give 25ap to party within huge range everytime you crititcally hit enemy, procs every 3 sec. Lowering all grudge 25 grudge skills to 15grudge and 15 for GoB as well AND to the 9pts skill not 13pts.

Imo with those changes you would give AP to party and no need to use even more grudge because atm IB feels super wrong to play imo. I hope with you that devs know that IB is not in a "good" Place. Man Giving WW to BG i really want to hear the explanation why they get 2h KD and WW. Originally bg didnt get either of those, obviously because longest punt, longest and only 5s Kd in the game.

Man i would love the Original 1.15s GCD back in the game! It was this before in ror AND more importantly in AOR as well and forcing 1.5s Hard GCD has taken us to 6 skills used in 10sec time from 8 skills used in 10sec time, and that is significant! More importantly i think it has broken more things than any else single change has.

[normanis]

or just give tzeench reflection to ib, remove ini/will (ib already has it) add also minor movement speed . choosen has it and noone complain. bg got wispering wind and black orc also got speed buff with tactic so all fair.
blood of grimnir - 25% chance distr for 10sec , silence its caster for 3 sec and increase your movement by 25% for 3-4 sec.
good for solo, for zerg and wb vs wb.

[GONDOR]

Agree on Runic Shield and Earthshatter 5pts. If BoG + Blorc version were 9 pts skills(make blorc KD core) i fould def use them in all 2h specs. But IB needs to have Rising Anger tactic part of the class itself so its not less smooth 3tactic BG. After those changes imo 2h IB would be in a good place. Change Told ya So tactic back to having infinite range and would grant 25ap to to your party everytime you critically hit enemy. IB gets 25% Crit with 1 skill and 1 tactic so it would flow good.

And 25 grudge cost is too much for KB UNLESS it has higher air or more range component with 100 grudge. 15Grudge cost for oathbound/ancestors fury as well would be better.

Tbh not even Rising Anger as core would fix the IB resource problems at the moment. Because of the gcd attached to grudge gains since the ability rework Ironbreaker is completely gimped at the moment, as 2H at least you need Rising Anger + dwarven riposte to even do any damage. We are like BGs now with 2 tactics available lol.

Seriously though what is worrying is if devs think IB is in a good spot and wont do more changes before they move on to other archetypes. In reality IB has never been this gimped before from what i can remember. I cant even play it in rvr anymore vs casters, only vs melee when dwarven riposte allows me to actually use the class -grudge- resource. Horrible situation poor IB.

Agreed that rising anger being core alone wouldnt fix IB to acceptable point, but if on top of that you would have the original version of Told ya so and give 25ap to party within huge range everytime you crititcally hit enemy, procs every 3 sec. Lowering all grudge 25 grudge skills to 15grudge and 15 for GoB as well AND to the 9pts skill not 13pts.

Imo with those changes you would give AP to party and no need to use even more grudge because atm IB feels super wrong to play imo. I hope with you that devs know that IB is not in a "good" Place. Man Giving WW to BG i really want to hear the explanation why they get 2h KD and WW. Originally bg didnt get either of those, obviously because longest punt, longest and only 5s Kd in the game.

Man i would love the Original 1.15s GCD back in the game! It was this before in ror AND more importantly in AOR as well and forcing 1.5s Hard GCD has taken us to 6 skills used in 10sec time from 8 skills used in 10sec time, and that is significant! More importantly i think it has broken more things than any else single change has.

No range on TYS isn't realistic - it won't happen. The initial change from crit to on grudge was to give you more control over when you trigger AP - you don't need to be hitting people and fishing for crits to RNG your way to giving people AP. You get better AP return and much more control/agency from triggering it with grudge skills - it's much better being on grudge skill use than it is on crit (double conditionals are bad, you have to land your blow and it has to crit). The issue now is grudge generation is low and tied to GCD.

I also don't think getting Rising Anger as core will happen either; it overlaps too much with BG. It's been asked for repeatedly over the years and hasn't happened - I'm not saying it won't, but it's very much not in in the ballpark of consideration. I wrote up a suggestion to improve grudge here: viewtopic.php?t=52703

[nocturnalguest]

Mastery relocation is straigh up big buff. Im not convinced IB really needs it but we have seen nor roadmap, nor anykind of balance plan, its all shady stuff (like always), a mystery again. PR thingy Hazmy posted clarifies actually absolutely nothing, it has not a single detail. So i believe this discussion without masterplan for everything else is way too moot for all of us to come up with something worthy on this matter and actually i see no valueable feedback to be given at the moment, but it all depends on how exactly rest of things may change.
Grudge gain is very very dangerous topic, BG gains Hate easier but its damage isnt tied with Hate. BGs damage is not pure, dangerous (and it really is dangerous, just look up what Trolar just did in GBF spec) burst that IB can do with proper execution (to do that you need very good GCD management and its not happening so often due to players mistakes and as battle flow demands many things) and its not high sustain adding up really big pressure SM used to have (i dont know how things are with recent patches for SM on a matter), its somewhere in the middle, jack of all trades, master of none. Straigh up buff for Grudge gains has to be mandatory modeled and possible dmg levels it may bring are to be deeply considered and analyzed.

I clearly see only two options we could ask for:
1. Revert BGs WW and IBs BoG back for selfheals and be done with it. Change hasnt been well thought out, its random balance swing not backed up by any data, its absolute disgrace to do balance like that. Accept mistake, bring back AP battery spec for IB and do further investigations if BG even needs anything to be changed for his left tree 13 pointer.
2. Mirror WAAAGH with elemental debuff type to create another synergy for order. I dont know if its actually needed, but its at least something reasonable to test out (justification here could be considering how BW vs Sorcs perform, need lots of data to decide if its needed or not).

For my personal bias and to bring back some flavor of uniqueness i would wish pointless HB adjustment to be reverted either, but its not a matter of balance to be absolutely fair. There were no proper reasons to nerf, there are no proper reasons to revert.

[Dackjanielz]

i like the idea of BoG being lowered in the tree and being made cheaper, while runic shield becomes core, then getting Grumble back.

However i doubt we will get grumble back at least in its current state, otherwise it never would of been removed.

Maybe if it heals for less now but it also heals team m8s too? Or at the least you and your oath friend perhaps?

[GONDOR]

Mastery relocation is straigh up big buff. Im not convinced IB really needs it but we have seen nor roadmap, nor anykind of balance plan, its all shady stuff (like always), a mystery again. PR thingy Hazmy posted clarifies actually absolutely nothing, it has not a single detail. So i believe this discussion without masterplan for everything else is way too moot for all of us to come up with something worthy on this matter and actually i see no valueable feedback to be given at the moment, but it all depends on how exactly rest of things may change.
Grudge gain is very very dangerous topic, BG gains Hate easier but its damage isnt tied with Hate. BGs damage is not pure, dangerous (and it really is dangerous, just look up what Trolar just did in GBF spec) burst that IB can do with proper execution (to do that you need very good GCD management and its not happening so often due to players mistakes and as battle flow demands many things) and its not high sustain adding up really big pressure SM used to have (i dont know how things are with recent patches for SM on a matter), its somewhere in the middle, jack of all trades, master of none. Straigh up buff for Grudge gains has to be mandatory modeled and possible dmg levels it may bring are to be deeply considered and analyzed.

I clearly see only two options we could ask for:
1. Revert BGs WW and IBs BoG back for selfheals and be done with it. Change hasnt been well thought out, its random balance swing not backed up by any data, its absolute disgrace to do balance like that. Accept mistake, bring back AP battery spec for IB and do further investigations if BG even needs anything to be changed for his left tree 13 pointer.
2. Mirror WAAAGH with elemental debuff type to create another synergy for order. I dont know if its actually needed, but its at least something reasonable to test out (justification here could be considering how BW vs Sorcs perform, need lots of data to decide if its needed or not).

For my personal bias and to bring back some flavor of uniqueness i would wish pointless HB adjustment to be reverted either, but its not a matter of balance to be absolutely fair. There were no proper reasons to nerf, there are no proper reasons to revert.

Grudge generation isn't dangerous - you can ride at 100 grudges now, just don't spam your grudge spenders. TBH you could always do this, it was how 2H played before the changes.

The change from grudge gen to GCD and increase in grudge spender cost just means less reason to use spenders and more micro-management of grudge.

It's bad because to play optimally ATM, you have to be extra grudge-greedy - on top of the piano micro. You don't have any agency like the BG does to balance out your spenders. You can't go "I've spent 30 grudge, I will now generate (Enraged Beating)". Ironbreaker doesn't have that control or playangle - you have to sit and wait for your opponent to do something. This is why Rising Anger is so popular and deemed so core - you get grudge for playing your class. The passive income of grudge is a lie - you trade HP for it. You don't get any control over when either. You trade your most valuable resource (HP) at the time and choosing of your opponent.

The issue with grudge gen is heavily at the start of the fight - especially with the slower rate of gain and increased cost of spenders. You should read the suggestion before trying to shoot down any mention of grudge changes; it focuses specifically on the sub 60 grudge, without changing the rate above 60.

As for mastery changes - they are a big thing, but it doesn't automatically make them bad. We already don't have counter-masteries in the same spots in the trees, and that causes significant build challenges in balancing out O v D. My view on moving Earthshatter down is one from the new player experience; it absolutely sucks that the very first mastery you get to spend - all of them are non-damaging buffs. When I was a newby IB, it sucked so much. I ran out of buttons to press, just sitting there hoping people would attack me with Oathbound or Runic Shield, so I could see the effect of these brand new masteries.

From a balance POV, I don't think moving Earthshatter down is too egregious; it's an AOE snare. Many IB builds pick it up, and it brings decent utility—nothing stand out, but extra snares are always welcome in all scales of play.

More to the point, BoG is not worth a 13pt mastery, and I doubt it ever will be. 25% AA damage, as nice as it seems on paper, adds nothing to the playstyle or playability. It's one more button to fit into an already packed rotation, that costs a lot of grudge when grudge management is harder than ever before.

Why take a skill if it turns your playability into a version of SNB KotBS? What great gameplay. Walk around mashing buffs—is that what tanks are supposed to be?

I like the idea of BoG being lowered in the tree and being made cheaper, while Runic Shield becomes core, then getting Grumble back.

However, I doubt we will get Grumble back, at least in its current state. Otherwise, it never would have been removed.

Maybe if it heals for less now but it also heals team m8s too? Or at the least you and your oath friend perhaps?

IMO the Gumble going is a bad change is a bad change is a bad change. There was little reason to remove Grumble aside from trying to self-justify the changes to BG. Leaving it in when they gave BG WotLK would have made the two masteries asymmetric - just as it is with BoG. So the reasoning doesn't make sense, unless it's some insidious attempt and nerfing IB. WAAAGH was already a bit of a poor skill, and it is much, much better than BOG in terms of group impact, resource cost, and gameplay involvement. The worst part of the GnM change was it removed something from IB playability in solo, small, and 6 scale combat, for something that does not fit the bill for those scales, and seems best for just Warband play.

My fear is that it won't come back as a core skill unchanged (as awesome as that would be - it would likely be very strong), and will end up replacing something like Oathstone and IB even more wonky; extra sustain on SNB IB would be very wild.

This is why I think GnMs re-implementation will be poor. It won't be what it was, it will be worse.

Given the track record of ability tinkering thus far, I have high expectations that GnM's return will be real sad.