"Pattrik's Essay on Class Balance"

[IVendettaI]

Wow! There are so many words!

There's definitely a significant balance issue between the two factions, and many people seem to be turning a blind eye to it. So there's this famous debate about "Rampage," and I'll explain my point of view:

People compare Rampage to Git To Da Choppa, claiming that Rampage can be shattered (Well, first of all, these two spells are completely different, but people seem to think that a comparison is possible, so let's stick to that and play along). Since it's a team game, you can have multiple enchantments. Knowing that a Shatter Enchantment has a 5-second cooldown, the Slayer has enough time to regain the lost enchantment (it's worth noting that the removal of the enchantment is random). Even more problematic: in the enchantment removal priority, Rampage is last. This means that even with two enchantments, including Rampage, the other enchantment will always be removed first.

Rampage lasts for 20 seconds with a 30-second cooldown, leaving 10 seconds without a buff. Git To Da Choppa lasts for 6 seconds with a 20-second cooldown, leaving 14 seconds in between. During the 6 seconds, you only make 3 attacks that can potentially attract the target (and the attacks can also be parried and blocked).

Yes... there's Chop Fasta, but the Slayer has Shatter Limbs, which increases the enemy's cooldown within 30 feet. So, in essence, the Slayer is more efficient over time.

Some dare to say (I'll withhold their names out of politeness) that Drop Da Basha is better than Rampage because it can't be shattered... Well, the Slayer also has the same spell. So the Slayer has Rampage PLUS Drop Da Basha (Numbing Strike), which means that if it ever gets shattered (which hardly ever happens), it has a backup plan and can use both spells one after the other. So, in a nutshell, to give you an idea:

Rampage is 100% effective upon use and 66% effective over time.
Drop Da Basha is 50% effective upon use and approximately 15% effective over time.
Git To Da Choppa is 50% effective upon use (on a target without parry/block) and about 30% effective over time.
Chop Fasta is 100% effective upon use for 6 players and 50% effective over time (20 sec/40 sec CD).
Shatter Limbs is 100% effective upon use without a limit on targets and 50% effective over time (10 sec/20 sec CD).
Don't forget: Rampage costs 5 points in the Path of The Trollslayer, GTDC costs 15 points in Path of Da' Wrecka. For the same number of points that Rampage requires, the Choppa can have Keep On Choppin', Bleed Em Out, Wot's Da Rush?. Can you feel it too? Yes, yes, it's ridiculous!

The Slayer can Shatter Enchantment + Blessing + Damage absorbing with Spellbreaker along the way. It's feasible with a great weapon and not part of the current meta, but he can do it!

I'd like to clarify: GTDC is not a bad spell. It's just that people are comparing it to Rampage, which, in my opinion, is absurd and almost laughable. GTDC is, in itself, an excellent grab... But at the same time, for 15 points, it should be! It's the least that should be expected when, on the other side, for 5 points, they have the most meta spell in the game, and that doesn't seem to shock anyone because "it can be shattered." You can clearly see that comparing the two, in reality, is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, and there is a serious balance problem between the two classes because of a time that has passed for years. We will pay the price for a long time because there supposedly is no issue about this, and it's supposed to be "fantasy," "a figment of the imagination." It's clearly a MAJOR problem that MUST be addressed.


BLACK ORK/SWORD MASTER


The Black Ork is considered the WORST class in the game, and it's the "mirror" version of the Sword Master, which is considered one of the best tanks in the game (it's clearly the best tank by far, no question about it).

Why? For a very simple reason: The Sword Master has 10/19 spirit-based attack spells, which is a significant advantage for an offensive tank. Generally, the problem with tanks is that they lack the tactics of a DPS, so they usually focus on a single offensive stat (strength). The offensive Black Ork can't ignore Weapon Skill, so it loses a lot of efficiency (as it only has one magical spell, and it's the last one in a mastery).

The Sword Master can debuff spiritual resistances with Wrath of Hoeth, which is a core ability (and can thus boost their DPS). The Black Ork can debuff corporeal resistances with WAAAAAAAGH! (which is the famous last spell in the mastery), which costs 14 points in Path of Da' Boss (but, in return, doesn't cost any action points).

The Sword Master can reduce the target's damage to 80% for 4 seconds without a cooldown (potentially in an area of effect). The Black Ork can reduce PHYSICAL damage to the target by 80% for 10 seconds with a 20-second cooldown, but ONLY if you block (so if you're using a 2H weapon, you can't use this spell, and it's only for single-target use).

The Sword Master is clearly a specialized 2H tank and can also be played with a SnB (Sword and Board) setup with Crushing Advance, Perfect Defenses, and Vaul's Buffer, but they won't be able to use Wall of Darting Steel, and it's not the best tank for funneling. Wall of Darting Steel is a very powerful spell, both offensively and defensively (and can allow for pseudo-funneling with other SnB tanks, but more with an offensive focus).

The Sword Master will benefit greatly from using Great Weapon Mastery, which increases their parry by 5%, Impeccable Reaction, which doubles their chances of parrying once every 5 seconds, and Eagle's Flight, which increases their parry by 25%. This sums up to 18% + 5% + 25% + ~5% (from gear) = ~53% parry, plus maybe a small bonus of 2% from Weapon Skill. So, you can potentially have a good 55% parry + 50% with the spell. Also, it's worth noting that you can use a weapon with a 25% chance to give +10% parry/dodge/disrupt for 10 seconds... So it's quite easy to get a significant defensive bonus!

The Sword Master can also reduce the cooldown of their group, which is quite useful.

One small clarification: when I say 10/19 spirit spells, I mean all the spells, including the Mastery abilities. To have all 10, you need the Sovereign+2. If you consider all the spirit spells, there are 10/16 spells in total, which is impressive. This is more than the Chosen, which has 8/17 attack spells (including all Mastery abilities), two of which deal basic physical damage and spiritual poison, and one spell that needs a tactic to become spirit-based.

On the other hand, the Black Ork seems, at first glance, more versatile (like most classes on the Destruction side, we'll come back to that). They can be played as a 2H tank and as a SnB tank, but they have serious consistency problems. Path of Da' Brawler, which is essentially the Black Ork's 2H mastery, offers "You Wot!?!!" for 14 points, which provides... Block (which is an unnecessary stat for 2H).

10% damage
15% block
15% parry
15% dodge/disrupt
30% armor/resistance
It's not a bad spell, but it loses efficiency with 2H, which doesn't make much sense. What doesn't make sense is that "T'ree Hit Combo" can only be used with a great weapon. Why add block to "You Wot!?!!" if the goal is to limit the use of this spell? It doesn't make sense.

The Black Ork has the highest blocking potential natively without using spells. So, it will have a better block than others. With Renown, "Good Wif Shield" provides 10% block, "You Wot!?!!" provides 15%, and "Less Stabbin' Me" can give up to 10% block/parry. Even without counting equipment, you can already have 30% block + 15% from "You Wot!?!!." With gear focused solely on blocking, you could theoretically reach 80% block (if all bonuses stack, which is theoretical). It's not bad! However, in the best-case scenario, the Sword Master with "Rampage" (which increases parry) and "Numbing Strike" has 30% parry (as opposed to a potential 130% parry - thanks to "Drop Da Basha" - for Sword Masters).

We can indeed use "Can't Hit Me!" to increase block to 130% (theoretical and RNG). However, with 60% movement speed, in practice, people can attack us from the back and the 50% block bonus is gone. "Wall Of Darting Steel" doesn't debuff movement speed and is roughly the same spell (and it's a core ability, while "Can't Hit Me!" is 6 points in Path of Da' Toughnest for a weaker spell).

The Black Ork has a tactic - "You Got Nuffin'" - which costs 4 points in Path of Da' Boss, and the Sword Master has the same - "Boltering Enchantments" - as a core tactic.

A 2H Black Ork cannot have more parry than a SnB Black Ork, even when the SnB Black Ork combines Block and Parry. The Black Ork 2H has much less parry potential than the Sword Master due to "You Wot!?!!" and the cumulative tactics.

The Black Ork clearly has a significant design issue. Most of its war shouts give the same buffs as its spells, which creates redundancy. This is not the case with the Sword Master, who has exactly the same "war shouts" with one minor exception.

Sure, the Sword Master may not be able to increase its armor as well as the Black Ork, but the "Heaven's Blade" of the Sword Master activates when they attack, while the Black Ork's "Da Greenest" activates when they're hit, which is theoretically more interesting. But between us (just between us, mind you), it's the worst War Bellow, let's not kid ourselves. There are potions that provide almost the same effect, and the resistance boost from healers isn't any better, but it's sufficient and, most importantly, not RNG-based. If the Black Ork takes this War Bellow, it's usually because they have no other choice or because they have "Loudmouth" (which makes it somewhat okay).

In summary: The Sword Master has its best defensive spells in a 2H setup, which means they are tankier and deal more damage in a 2H configuration. The Black Ork doesn't have this possibility (although there is a hybrid SnB DPS build, but it requires many compromises). The fact that one excels in parrying while the other is better at blocking isn't an issue. However, it's evident that there's a balance problem. The Black Ork truly needs a significant buff.


CHOSEN/KNIGHT OF THE BLAZING SUN


The Chosen serves as the offensive tank for the Destruction side in place of the Black Ork. It's a versatile class that can be played with both 2H and SnB setups. Unlike the Black Ork, there is no inconsistency, and it's well-optimized. It's even recommended for beginners due to its quick learning curve.

The Chosen deals spiritual damage and has the ability to deal spiritual damage with its "T'ree Hit Combo" (Relentless) through "Oppressing Blow," which also increases crit chance by 15%. In the SnB setup, it has great parrying potential. "Mixed Defenses" increases parry by 25% for 5 seconds every time it blocks an attack, and "Suppression" also increases parry by 25% for 15 seconds.

The Chosen has a significant toughness potential. It can use two tactics, "Rugged" (+160 toughness) and "Deamonclaw" (+160 strength/toughness), along with an aura, "Corrupting Wrath" (+~120), for a total of 440 toughness. This is incredibly powerful, especially considering it has a racial tactic, "Warped Flesh," which adds an unshatterable barrier.

It's a versatile tank not only because it can be played in different ways but also because it does a bit of everything that other tanks offer without being mediocre. Its auras allow for a wide variety of gameplay and build options. Unlike the Black Ork, its auras have 100% effectiveness, and it can have three auras compared to one shout for the Black Ork.

The Knight of the Blazing Sun (KOTBS), on the other hand, is less versatile. It doesn't benefit much from being played as a 2H tank because there's very little synergy with a great weapon. It doesn't deal magical damage, so it's preferable to play it with SnB in a support role to reduce damage and significantly boost defense.

Its lack of versatility isn't much of an issue, as it excels in the support role. It can enhance the healing received by its entire group with "Focused Mending" and "Now's Our Chance!" and reduce incoming damage with "Vigilance," among other abilities. Unfortunately, it has limited blocking/parrying potential, with "Shield Rush" offering only 10% block and potentially 15% parry with "Coordination."

There's less to say about these two classes because they are generally well-balanced. The Chosen is undoubtedly more fun than the KOTBS, but that's true for most Destruction classes (although I'm certainly envious of the Sword Master, which is an exception).


BLACK GUARD/IRON BREAKER


The Black Guard is considered the strongest tank on the Destruction side. It can do almost everything. It's viable in both 2H and SnB setups, is versatile, excels in all defensive stats, can regenerate using "Feeding on Weakness" and "Bolstering Anger," and can debuff healing with "Soul Killer" and armor with "Horrific Wound," among other capabilities.

Its Elite Training ability allows both the Black Guard and its "Dark Protector" to parry or disrupt four attacks for 10 seconds, with a 30-second cooldown. This is the only spell that can defend against "Rampage." While it's powerful, over 10 seconds, more than four attacks could be directed at the Black Guard, so it's not overpowered, especially with the long cooldown.

Its true strength lies in "Dark Protector." It's clearly a duo tank, prioritizing the protection of one target with the best protective spells, at the expense of group spells. This makes it a challenging tank to play, as it can only protect one person at a time.

The potential for toughness is very high thanks to "Terrifing Foe," which can increase it by up to 45%. Depending on the equipment, it can have even more toughness than the Chosen.

The Iron Breaker is a bit less versatile, leaning more towards SnB, but it can still be played with a 2H setup. Its Elite Training ("Oathstone") is personal and provides block instead of parry/disrupt. However, it has "Oathbound," which increases parry by 25% for both the Iron Breaker and its "Oath Friend." It offers a defensive potential quite similar to the SnB Black Guard but with additional damage reduction thanks to "Shield Mastery" and "Seasoned Veteran." It also has "Ancestral Inheritance," which increases its armor, potentially granting a substantial armor bonus with the right equipment or the "Guarded Attack" ability.

The Iron Breaker is somewhat less of a "babysitter" tank than the Black Guard but still performs admirably. It's more resilient and can continually buff its "Oath Friend's" parry, which is not negligible. It also has options for regeneration through "Grumble An' Mutter" and "Avenging the Debt."

Personally, I prefer the Iron Breaker. But, on paper, both classes are strong.


WITCH ELF/WITCH HUNTER


The argument that Witch Elves are stronger than Witch Hunters because they have an extra 10% parry from dual-wielding doesn't hold up. Witch Hunters have a tactic, "Righteous Steel," which grants 10% parry by default. Yes, Witch Elves have "Swift Blades," but it's an 8-point ability in "Path of Carnage." However, the debate comes to an end when you introduce "Repel of Blasphemy," which offers 100% parry for 5 seconds with a 30-second cooldown. We're talking about an assassin class dealing tremendous damage, and 5 seconds without taking damage is a significant advantage. Additionally, there's "Confusing Mouvements," an M1 ability that provides the same effect for 7 seconds. Having almost 12 seconds of near invincibility in close combat is substantial. But, of course, you still need that extra 10% parry, right?

Overall, these two classes are quite similar. The Witch Hunter has a few advantages, like the ability to debuff 240 toughness/strength/weapon skill, making it the class with the most significant stat debuff in the game. But once again: "Witch Elves are stronger!"

There's no need to dwell on this case further; it's not a significant issue.


MAGUS/ENGINEER


To begin: The Magus doesn't have an auto-attack. Is that okay with you? Can we continue? (Actually, it does, but it's melee-based and relies on strength, which it lacks, making it practically useless).

The Magus has an advantage over the Engineer in that it's a mage, and all its spells are magical, requiring it to focus on just one stat: intelligence.

The Engineer also primarily focuses on one stat, but it depends on the build. The meta build isn't the same as the physical build. So, the Engineer needs to invest in Weapon Skill, a stat that differs from that of the Magus. Additionally, the Engineer utilizes a tactic, "Fightin' Chance," which boosts Strength (useless), Ballistic Skill, and Weapon Skill by 120, at the cost of 120 Toughness.

Both classes are relatively similar and perform similar roles. While the Engineer benefits from its "Keg" ability, it's worth noting that the Engineer's weapon procs are generally weak. Therefore, both classes have their qualities and drawbacks, and there's no need to dwell on this further.

SQUIG HERDER/SHADOW WARRIOR & MARAUDER/WHITE LION

Why are there four classes instead of two? This is because we'll discuss the topic more briefly, as it's getting quite lengthy. Moreover, these four classes aren't exact "mirrors" of each other, unlike the others.

The Shadow Warrior shares stances with the Marauder, and the Squig Herder shares pets and jumping abilities with the White Lion.

The Shadow Warrior, depending on the stance, can't use spells intended for another stance (unlike the Marauder), which limits its versatility as it must switch stances to transition from melee to ranged combat and vice versa (this makes it significantly more limiting in the game).

The Squig Herder doesn't face such limitations because it doesn't have stances. It comes with squigs (or not). It has the ability to engage in melee, similar to the Shadow Warrior, using the "Squig Armor" spell, which boosts Wound and Toughness (in place of Strength and Weapon Skill). In contrast to the White Lion, the Squig Herder can choose from multiple pets: the Squig, the Horned Squig, the Gaz Squig, and the Spiked Squig. Some enjoyable combos can be created, such as using "Tastes Like Chicken" to eat one's squig, gain Wounds, and instantly summon another squig. Alternatively, similar tactics can be used with the "Farty Squig" (this allows for cycling between squigs).

The Squig Herder is generally more entertaining than the Shadow Warrior, but this doesn't mean that the Shadow Warrior isn't enjoyable or less effective. It offers its unique strengths and is more offensive than the Squig Herder. It's a different approach to gameplay. Moreover, the Squig Herder can even be "guarded" by its squig and can almost be played as a tank. There's a lot of potential for exciting gameplay with this class. It's a hard-fought victory on both sides.

In contrast, the Marauder and White Lion have very few similarities. Unlike the other classes, where stances or pets play a significant role, these two classes are clearly distinct. In place of stances (to create a semblance of a mirror), the White Lion uses "trainings" for its lion, which boost the lion's stats. The White Lion can also play without a pet using "Loner," which increases its damage output by 25%.

Oh, and about the Marauder's pull, I'll save that for later.


SORCERER/BRIGHT WIZARD


These classes are generally similar but don't have mirrored spells in the same mastery abilities. There are some notable differences:

"Fireball Barrage" has a 3-second duration and inflicts 1 damage over time (DoT) per second, resulting in 483 damage to the target per second. However, the AoE (Area of Effect) damage is 242 per second over only 10 feet.
"Shadow Knives" lasts for 6 seconds, dealing 332 damage to everyone every 2 seconds within a 20-foot radius.
"Disastrous Cascade" (255 damage) deals more DPS than "Annihilate" (217), with damage occurring every second over 3 seconds, resulting in a difference of 114 damage, which is quite substantial.
"Spreading Flames" inflicts a significant amount of damage on a single target (605) but less damage in an area (153 over 3 seconds) with a 20-second cooldown and instant cast. "Gloom of Night" lacks the single-target damage but deals more area damage (219 every 3 seconds) with a 10-second cooldown. However, it has a 2-second cast time (which is reduced by 50% in melee combat).
"Black Horror" deals direct damage over 20 feet and reduces initiative. It has a 2-second cast time (1 second in melee).
"Backdraft" delivers 995 damage over 15 seconds with a 20-second cooldown, within a 30-foot radius, and punts the target.
The punt ability is potent. The Sorcerer can counterbalance this with "Triumphant Blasting," but it's both too random and frequent to be viable. Players generally prefer to punt at the right moment rather than randomly triggering an immunity effect.


SHAMAN/ARCHMAGE


It's more or less the same thing, but the Archmage is more offensive.


ZEALOT/RUNE PRIEST


It's more or less the same thing. Healers are healers, and, in any case, they are the most potent classes in the game. So, let's move on.

DISCIPLE OF KHAINE/WARRIOR PRIEST

The significant difference is that the DPS branch of the Warrior Priest is played with a great weapon, while the Disciple of Khaine is played with dual-wielding. The "covenants" of the DoK are more versatile than the "prayers" of the WP, but prayers are more effective in their domain. The DoK can enhance the chances of triggering covenants through "Potent Covenant," whereas the WP lacks this tactic. However, the WP has a better healing tactic than the DoK. "Exalted Defenses" versus "Transferred Focus," where "Transferred Focus" is essentially unusable for a healing caster because they cannot critically hit their target. Furthermore, it can only be cast on a defensive target, making it undesirable. In essence, it's quite ineffective. As for the rest, it's quite similar.


CONCLUSION

I had mentioned that I would revisit the statement: "Destruction classes are more fun." Destruction classes are more "versatile"; they can be hybrid, unlike Order classes that are generally confined to a single role or purpose. It's undeniably more enjoyable to play a tank that can also deal damage while fulfilling its primary tanking role (especially when you read further). Playing a healer who can effectively perform their healing role while also dealing damage, for better or worse, is more fun. However, this is often for the worse because Destruction classes can indeed be hybrids, but it requires a significant investment to be viable, an investment that too many Destruction players neglect in favor of the famous refrain, "I play for fun, I play to chill, I play for FUN." The fun of Destruction classes is easily accessible, but why optimize when the fun objective is already achieved? Fun ultimately doesn't lie in optimizing your character and turning them into a war machine, but in simply playing your tank with an axe and feeling like you're doing more than just the potentially dull role it's often seen as.

The game clearly disadvantages tanks. I personally play a Black Ork, and it is by far the worst tank in the game, especially considering that tanks, in general, are the weakest class. The Tank/DPS/Heal trinity exists only for group and strategic consistency. But the game clearly offers the opportunity not to play with tanks for potentially better results.

Tanks need a boost, not just the Black Ork but all tanks in the game (except the Sword Master, which needs it less than the others, let's not exaggerate). The game doesn't allow tanks to be "hybrids" and have a fair balance between parry and block, for instance. In the end, whether on the Order or Destruction side, Drop Da Basha and Numbing Strike reduce block/parry by 50%. If you have 100 parry, you're left with 50. If you have 50 block/50 parry, you're left with nothing. It's a real problem. Blocking is harder to obtain and is just as easy to remove as parry. An SnB tank will generally have a block/parry equivalent to the parry of a 2H tank. This is also why the Sword Master is better than the Black Ork because, in the face of Drop Da Basha, the Sword Master will still maintain a good parry rate, unlike the 2H Black Ork or even the SnB Black Ork. Moreover, there's something worse than Numbing Strike, and you can see it coming: Rampage. This is a significant problem:

Too easily accessible
Too difficult (impossible) to shatter
Too effective
Stackable with Numbing Strike (when Rampage is over => Numbing Strike)
How can people dare to say that this is fair? On one hand, tanks retain some of their defense, while on the other, they don't. And you might say, "Yes, but not everyone in a warband is a Slayer" – well, the Slayer is the most played DPS. So yes, there are mostly Slayers.

The Slayer deserves a nerf in favor of an up for the 2H branch to diversify gameplay. The Choppa also needs an up for the 2H branch.

Tanks need to have more impact in a fight. Today, tanks fall almost as quickly as DPS, and even tanks playing SnB with maximum defensive stats. What's the point of playing defensively if you're getting torn to shreds just like the DPS you're protecting?

The SnB path of a tank should not be limited to being a boring wall in terms of gameplay. But this gameplay should not be removed either because it's how most people perceive a tank in general. However, an SnB tank should not have this limitation. A 2H tank should have access to defensive spells in the same way that an SnB tank should have easier access to offensive spells. Having a good block and parry rate should be more rewarding because it's not the case currently, as I mentioned earlier. I don't have a concrete idea of how to change this, but for me, block should be much harder to remove than parry for the simple reason that it's clearly more challenging to obtain. The stat is powerful but only effective from the front.

A tank has as much magical resistance as a cloth-wearing mage, so what's the point of armor in this game? It would be logical for resistances to be influenced by the armor. A tank should be able to TANK magic more easily than someone in cloth, right? It's just logical, in my opinion.

All tanks should have a significant number of magical damage spells. Physical tanks are too challenging to play offensively. They should also have a few more AoE spells.

If you allow DPS to remove as much parry/block, tanks should be able to easily reach above 100% in combat (not in funnel). Yes, I can see your point, but in a funnel, the Black Ork is the best – indeed, a Slayer can't enter to debuff the Black Ork, so with all his stats intact, he's very good. What's needed are attacks like those of the Swordmaster and Chosen that increase a defensive stat by 25% in melee combat. But this is a problem in many other areas as well.

(Take away Rampage to increase Numbing Strike and Drop Da Basha so they have shorter cooldowns, why not?)

Today, a tank without a healer is essentially just a DPS that doesn't DPS. A tank is nothing without a good healer. This is the strategy of almost all KOTBS players, in reality. They get mass healing. In reality, they could be naked and without a shield. Anyone with that much healing would be on the verge of invincibility (even a DPS). They also have renown stats that reduce damage taken and spells to increase healing received, but it only allows them to survive a few extra seconds in a critical situation, which doesn't make them almost invulnerable in combat because the spells have cooldowns. You can have 4 seconds of theoretical invincibility (if you don't have a healer), which means you've only survived four seconds longer than others, four seconds in which you've only absorbed hits because apart from that, you can't hope to take someone down with you. It's not that it's useless, but in a favorable situation, it can help alleviate the healers. However, they could get by without it in reality (such a spell doesn't exist, just to clarify... I know some people take things literally on the forums, and I wouldn't want my house to burn down).

Tanks need to have a place in the trinity and impact it in the absence of others, and this is simply not the case today (especially for a Black Ork, and even for a Black Ork with the best defensive stats).

We need to stop comparing GTDC to Rampage, especially to claim that GTDC is stronger. If we weren't talking about a video game, it would be almost shameful to say such things! A grab in an area is random. A grab is not undefendable. A grab has a casting time/cast duration. A grab can be countered with a stun, for example. An area grab has an area of effect (logical, but I think it's important to specify).

Should I continue or not? Rampage doesn't have these constraints, we agree on that, right?

Order players complain about "grab abuse." But if you're getting "grab abuse," I'm sorry to say it like this, but you're just not good players. When you see Choppas in GTDC and you stand at the edge of the Praag fort like novices, it's not "grab abuse"; you're just novices, to put it plainly. You need to reevaluate yourselves. There's never any grab abuse; it doesn't exist. It's a trolling ability, you're being trolled, and you're frustrated. That's it. GTDC doesn't win fights. GTDC is generally used to attract fleeing players who had already lost the battle. Grabs don't happen in the middle of fights. The spell deals damage every 2 seconds, and you can well imagine that there are more profitable things to do.

Rampage allows you to do 100% of your DPS for 20 seconds with no real possibility of "shattering," as I mentioned at the beginning. Even on paper, there's no comparison; it's clearly stronger! And you dare to say it's legit? Considering that there are almost no Destruction tanks that can have above 100% parry and/or block, and the little they have is gone for 20 seconds! And on top of that, there's Numbing Strike for an additional 10 seconds, just in case. Who knows, maybe 30 seconds is enough? We keep our fingers crossed!

30 seconds when most fights in RvR last a maximum of 10 seconds... Isn't that excessive? Especially considering that it's a buff, so if the Slayer gets stunned, he keeps Rampage, right? Do you see where I'm going with this? GTDC – if you get stunned – you no longer have GTDC. Too bad! It's a channeled spell; that's just how it is. There wouldn't be an issue if this spell weren't being compared to Rampage, but it turns out they're being compared. And in the end, it's good because it proves how much the Choppa is significantly inferior to the Slayer, by a long shot, in fact.

Just the Slayer alone explains the 80% win rate of Order when you consider that Choppa and Slayer are the two most played DPS. But there's also the Sword Master, which isn't played as much, but the Black Ork, on the contrary, is one of the most played tanks, which is quite confusing given that it's factually the worst tank in the game. There are two classes that are significantly superior. Is that normal? Yet, it's factual, and this discourse is consensus. Why isn't anything being done? Why doesn't the rework even hint at more significant buffs for Destruction?

"But don't worry, the Black Ork will have a 'SINGLE TARGET PUNT,' that's going to change everything." Oh really? The disillusionment will be enormous, my friends!

"Yes, but Pattrik, you have a crap build, you have Warlord gears with a shield, play a real build." All Black Ork builds are bad compared to other tanks, regardless of the build; there are problems. SnB DPS is far from being bad, and the criticism often comes from x-realmers... Odd? Could it possibly be the same players all the time? If so, they have all the Rank 80 characters, so they must know the game better, they know what they're talking about, right?

Like saying that Drop Da Basha is better than Rampage... Anyway, no hard feelings.

Some want to defend the Black Ork by saying that he can achieve 100% "mitigation" (with everything I've said about BO above) and that he's the only tank that can do it. Yes, as I said, he can do it. But how does it fare in combat? Is it good? "Well, yes, you have to use it in situations conducive to its use, blah blah blah..." Yeah, well, that's lame. Because as I said, 60% move speed = You're dead. "The BO can debuff stats with Can't Hit Me! at a distance, so the healers will have 120 Willpower less!" No, the healers don't attack you and are far from the debuff area, so you're debuffing the wrong people, and your debuff serves no purpose. The Strength debuff is cool, but others can do it too, and in reality, you can debuff Strength and Weapon Skill with your spells, which, ONCE AGAIN, duplicate. What you're trying to do as a tank in a funnel isn't debuffing your opponent's strength, but avoiding dying. What can the BO do to survive apart from having "100% mitigation" (which he doesn't really have since he still gets Passthrougth like everyone else) and his debuffs? He has a barrier spell that's worse than the Sword Master's, he has a more restrictive damage reduction spell than the Sword Master's, and... oh, that's it! (Yes, he can increase his armor with You wot!?!! but most SnB players don't have You Wot !?!! and armor isn't the strongest aspect in the game either). So, in concrete terms, what can the BO do to survive? The answer: Nothing more than the other tanks, and it's even the opposite since he does much less than the others.

Debuffing is cool, but what are you debuffing for? To have a 25% chance to have 120 Toughness? The Chosen has it 100% of the time, and he can have much more than the BO, and the BO has Savin' Me Hide, which boosts Toughness just as much as the shout in combat. To have 120 Strength? There are potions. To have 120 Weapon skill? Why bother in a funnel? And in combat, you have Follow 'me Lead, which boosts the same thing. To have 120 Intelligence? Mages don't need you. To have 120 Willpower? Would that be the only utility? So, a 25% chance to boost Willpower?

One single War Bellow for just a useful increase in Willpower is quite limited, isn't it? There are better options.

In your opinion, great defenders of the Black Ork, is that sufficient and doesn't need an upgrade? It's just missing a single-target punt, right? That's not very ambitious, lol.

The worst part of all this is seeing people say, "Look, you're complaining, but you get more kills on the Destruction side, so the game is fair" (the same people who say that Drop Da Basha is better than Rampage, for reference, to give you an idea – K/D players, and all that... Defending forts is not for them, the essence of the game, right?)

I think most Order players (or x-realmers) who have this discourse don't even know why their faction wins territory control. They probably complain about getting "grab abused." Very likely, lol.

The pass-through is far too strong. If you have both block and parry, you lose twice as many stats far too easily. Having block is more challenging to obtain than having parry, as I mentioned earlier (and that's normal, it's not the problem). Set bonuses, passives, and pass-through spells are generally for countering both stats at the same percentage for both (that's the problem). In a build, you rarely have only block; the more block you have, the less parry you have, but you can factually say that block can't do without parry. In the case where the enemy has pass-through, a tank with block will lose twice as many defensive stats as a tank with only parry. It seems logical in the sense that the tank with block has that block, so it can lose it. However, it shouldn't be lost as easily as parry for the simple reason that it's not parry (lol) and it should be a genuinely powerful stat. I'm not saying it should be impossible to remove, but certainly not as easily.

To sum up, I believe that all classes in the game should have all their builds be viable. Everything should be playable properly. There shouldn't be constraints as enormous as for the Black Ork, for example. But I also think about the KOTBS, which is clearly confined to one build and ends up boring the players of this class. The FUN criterion should be fulfilled regardless of the build and the class. Order is suffering from this lack of customization, and Destruction is suffering from inconsistency issues; this is something that needs to be taken seriously; it's a real problem and is, in fact, a more significant problem than Rampage could ever be. Quite a lot!

[Bavradai]

A good and well thought out post that I completely agree with!

[IVendettaI]

I appreciate, my gob lov !

[Haojin]

amazing ideas, keep them coming !

[IVendettaI]

In reality, I focus more on the problems than the solutions. I don't necessarily have concrete ideas for making all class builds viable, but one thing is certain: Rampage is a burden, and the Black Ork is the worst tank in the game. We've reached a point where the Black Ork doesn't just need a minor adjustment, but a full rework.

The fact that You Wot!?!!! provides block is what excites me, but it's in opposition to T'ree Hit Combo, which requires a great weapon. This limitation needs to be removed, just like Wall of Darting Steel should be usable with Sword and Board.

I may be advocating for my own cause, but it's evident that all tanks in the game have severe flaws. The Sword Master shines in the 2H build, but in Sword and Board, it's far less viable.

[juzziex]

Largely disagree that rampage is a problem and Drop Da Basher is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered and yes im well aware slayers have the same ability...it should be toned down on the slayers end imo but for Choppa it is essential to keep it how it is.

I actually find the slayer to be one of the better designed classes in the game for the simple fact that they both make the player and the enemy constantly have to be on their top level gameplay to perform the best they can. You can interupt/shatter the hell out of slayers and really shut them down, you can KD them while red and blow them up. But if they position well and are smart with their ability usage they will slaughter large groups of players and IMO that's how the game should be more like.

A lot of classes are simply faceroll either for the player, the enemy or both. Like how do you counter a guarded bomb sorc? well you don't really you just spam some buttons and hope their tank/healers **** up....and healers??? Most of them don't even know how to kite yet they seem to never die regardless.

This is the kind of boring gameplay that needs to be fixed. Leave slayers alone and work on making the other classes operate in a more interesting gameplay loop first then we can start rebalancing across the board.

[wonshot]

In general terms yes the two realms are different, some interactions and options are better for some careers on both sides.
For example the Zealot AP pump being horribly midtree vs runepriest lefttree and many other examples of better options over your soft-mirror on the other side.

Blackorcs, however, have been suffering for waaay too long! The class needed some identity given back more than a year ago after that horribly order-biased patch which took Destros moral pump advantage away, gave it to AM in the same round. While adding two aoe interrupts on SM(one got reverted) and in general just made a mess which we are still playing on.

Rampage. oh boy.. Well, making it always appear to be first on the list over shatterable enchantments would mean that any bo/bg could remove it. but it would still be a massive pain in the ass in funnel situations. Just like how an organized warband, which most likely are running 4/8 dps slots with choppas to have one per group for Chopfaster, would have the combined suck-in effect of a coordinated choppapull which basicly extends the normal killzone of an aoe warband.
Slayerball are dangerous in front of them, choppa warbands are dangerous frontal too but also on their flanks because of the pulls will leave less safe manuvering around their frontal killzone before you are sucked into it.

In very broad terms id say on a warband-level Order is better when fully optimized, where as destro on a more pug or semi organized level can pugstomp better with each of the realms having their advantages.
Slayer & choppa in my book are just overloaded with too much utility, easy acces low cd no condition hd, crazy Numb value(clenseable?) while having the strongest mobile Channels to reposition while dishing out. And the option between ST or Aoe depending on the situation within the same build.
After the mixture of Morale dmg per second nerf and gcd increase these indirectly just made big aoe channels the best burst, leaving these classes stackable and kings of the warbands while also beeing needed to counter eachothers effect of Chopfaster vs Shattered limbs.

And then i agree on the part where someone said that slayer is a really fun class mechanic, actually bouncing up and down in the rage meter is more fun than a caster just rushing and then camping on max Combustion.

[IVendettaI]

Largely disagree that rampage is a problem and Drop Da Basher is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered and yes im well aware slayers have the same ability...it should be toned down on the slayers end imo but for Choppa it is essential to keep it how it is.

I actually find the slayer to be one of the better designed classes in the game for the simple fact that they both make the player and the enemy constantly have to be on their top level gameplay to perform the best they can. You can interupt/shatter the hell out of slayers and really shut them down, you can KD them while red and blow them up. But if they position well and are smart with their ability usage they will slaughter large groups of players and IMO that's how the game should be more like.

A lot of classes are simply faceroll either for the player, the enemy or both. Like how do you counter a guarded bomb sorc? well you don't really you just spam some buttons and hope their tank/healers **** up....and healers??? Most of them don't even know how to kite yet they seem to never die regardless.

This is the kind of boring gameplay that needs to be fixed. Leave slayers alone and work on making the other classes operate in a more interesting gameplay loop first then we can start rebalancing across the board.

"Drop Da Basha is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered.

You need to READ what people are saying before you WRITE, my friend. Rampage is last on the priority list; it's almost impossible to remove it in a fight. And why wouldn't Rampage work on all players? What you're saying doesn't make sense.

"I actually find the slayer to be one of the better designed classes in the game."

It's the meta class of the game, so saying the opposite would add even more inconsistency to your argument!

"For the simple fact that both the player and the enemy need to be on their top-level gameplay constantly to perform at their best."

Ah, so he doesn't need to contribute much from his side, but the opponent must give their best. It seems entirely legitimate, so thank you for pointing that out in your counter-argument!

"You can interrupt/shatter the hell out of Slayers and really shut them down."

You need to READ what people are saying before you WRITE, my friend. Rampage is last on the priority list.

"You can KD them while red and blow them up."

This doesn't remove Rampage, but yes, you can KD a Slayer to try to kill them.

"But if they position themselves well and are smart with their ability usage, they will slaughter large groups of players, and in my opinion, that's how the game should be."

"If I play well, I can DOOM the map and kill everyone in one second! After all, I know how to play, I'm worth it! For me, that's how the game should be."

"A lot of classes are simply faceroll for the player."

Which class is easier to play than Slayer and Choppa? Are you saying that the simplest classes to play in the game (which is why they are the most played DPS in the game) are actually complicated?

Are you saying that the rotation a Sorcerer (or Bright Wizard) must perform is easier than playing the most brainless class, Slayer? That takes some nerve!

"And healers? Most of them don't even know how to kite, yet they seem to never die regardless."

Healers are part of the holy trinity of classes, so yes, they are very powerful and important. But a healer's role is not to kite, it's to heal. And generally, in a group fight (not a 1v1 scenario you seem to be talking about), a healer prefers to stick close to a tank to receive guard and let the DPS handle the issue.

"This is the kind of boring gameplay that needs to be fixed. Leave Slayers alone and focus on making other classes operate in a more interesting gameplay loop first, then we can start rebalancing across the board."

Except for tanks suffering from a fluidity issue, all the other classes are clearly interesting and more complex than Slayer and Choppa (which doesn't take away from the skill of excellent players of these two classes). From the most objective standpoint, all the other classes are far more complex and require deeper understanding of the game mechanics. It's no secret (except perhaps to you) that many more people play Slayer/Choppa randomly than any other class. I've never seen a Sorcerer succeed by playing randomly.

But there you have it, a whole novel just for someone to tell me that Slayer is difficult to play... It's almost obscurantism at this point!"

[bw10]

It's clear that you've raised several points and concerns about the balance between various classes in the Warhammer Return of Reckoning game. While I respect your perspective, I'd like to provide a counter-argument to some of your assertions.

Regarding the Slayer and Choppa Comparison:

Rampage vs. Git To Da Choppa: You argue that Rampage is overpowered compared to Git To Da Choppa because it can be shattered. It's important to note that game balance isn't just about the abilities themselves but how they fit into the broader context of class design. The Choppa has unique abilities and strengths that compensate for Git To Da Choppa's limitations, making it balanced within the Choppa class.

Shatter Limbs vs. Chop Fasta: While Shatter Limbs is a powerful ability, it requires a great weapon and has a limited range. In contrast, Chop Fasta has a broader application, benefiting the entire group. Both abilities are designed to serve different purposes, making direct comparisons challenging.

Ability Costs: You argue that the Slayer's abilities are too costly for their effects. However, game balance isn't solely about the number of points an ability costs. It's about how these abilities synergize with the class's overall design and playstyle.

Black Ork vs. Sword Master:

Spirit vs. Physical Damage: You mention that Sword Masters deal spirit damage, making them more versatile. The Black Ork may lack spirit-based attacks, but this aligns with its design as a more straightforward and hard-hitting tank. These differences in damage types contribute to class uniqueness.

Toughness: The Black Ork excels in the toughness department, which is a core part of their class identity. While Sword Masters may have strengths elsewhere, the Black Ork's focus on toughness and blocking makes them unique.

Spell Redundancy: You mention that the Black Ork's war shouts often overlap with their spells. However, this is a design choice to provide players with flexibility in their playstyle. The Black Ork's class identity revolves around war shouts and spells, allowing players to mix and match based on their preferences.

Chosen vs. Knight of the Blazing Sun:

Versatility: The Chosen's versatility is a key aspect of their design, allowing players to adapt to various situations. In contrast, the Knight of the Blazing Sun excels in support and group dynamics. The differentiation in roles adds depth to class balance.

Damage Types: Chosen deals spiritual damage, while the Knight focuses on reducing incoming damage and boosting healing. These differences contribute to class identity and balance.

Black Guard vs. Iron Breaker:

Duo Tanking: The Black Guard's focus on protecting a single target creates a unique role within the tank archetype. While this may seem challenging, it's balanced by the class's ability to excel at single-target defense.

Toughness: The Iron Breaker's potential for high toughness and synergy with SnB setups showcases a different tanking approach. Both classes provide players with distinct tanking experiences.

Witch Elf vs. Witch Hunter:

Parry Mechanics: Witch Elves and Witch Hunters have their unique parry mechanics, which align with their respective playstyles. Witch Hunters are better at disrupting their opponents, while Witch Elves focus on dealing damage. These differences are intentional for class diversity.

Balance: Both classes have their advantages and disadvantages, making them relatively balanced in their roles. Game developers often aim to create classes with unique strengths and weaknesses to encourage diverse gameplay.

Magus vs. Engineer:

Auto-Attacks: While the Magus doesn't have a traditional auto-attack, its gameplay focuses more on deploying and managing daemons. This different approach makes it an interesting and distinct class, even though it lacks melee-based auto-attacks.

Stat Requirements: Both classes have different stat requirements and tactics, which contribute to class diversity. The Engineer's need to focus on Weapon Skill aligns with their more hybrid approach, while the Magus's reliance on Intelligence suits its magical spellcasting.

In conclusion, the balance of classes in a game like Warhammer Return of Reckoning is a complex and challenging task. Game developers aim to create unique playstyles and roles for each class, leading to differences in abilities and mechanics. These differences contribute to the overall richness and diversity of the game. While some imbalances may exist, it's essential to consider the broader class design and intended roles before calling for significant changes.

Engineer vs. Ironbreaker:
It's true that both classes share some similarities, but they also have unique strengths and weaknesses that can cater to different playstyles and team compositions. The Engineer's "Keg" ability may not have the strongest weapon procs, but it offers utility in crowd control and area denial.

Squig Herder/Shadow Warrior & Marauder/White Lion:
The differences between these classes help create variety and complexity in the game. While the Shadow Warrior has stance restrictions, it also brings versatility and offers players a different experience compared to the Squig Herder. The Squig Herder's pet choices add variety and tactical options, making it an enjoyable class for those who appreciate pet mechanics.

Sorcerer/Bright Wizard:
These two classes may not have exact mirrored spells, but their differences contribute to class diversity. The variations in spells provide players with different ways to approach ranged spellcasting and add depth to gameplay.

Shaman/Archmage:
The Archmage's offensive capabilities offer a unique twist to the healing archetype, catering to players who prefer a more offensive support role.

Zealot/Rune Priest:
Healers are essential in any game, and while these classes may seem similar, their differences allow players to choose a healing style that suits their preferences.

Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest:
These classes share similarities but have distinct mechanics that appeal to different players. The choice between great weapon and dual-wielding can impact playstyle and strategy.

Tanks and Balance:
The concerns raised about tank classes are valid. Balancing tanks' defensive and offensive capabilities is essential to make them more appealing and impactful in the game. While tanks are designed for protection, providing them with more utility and unique abilities could make them more enjoyable to play.

Rampage and GTDC:
The comparison between these abilities highlights issues with balance. If one ability significantly outperforms another, it can lead to frustration in the player community. Game developers should consider addressing such discrepancies to ensure fair gameplay.

Customization and Class Balance:
The desire for all classes and builds to be viable and enjoyable is a reasonable one. Game developers should work to balance classes, encourage diversity in playstyles, and make sure that every class is fun to play while remaining competitive.

In conclusion, the post raises many valid points about class balance, diversity, and customization in the game. While it's essential to consider class variations, these observations can help improve the game and provide a more enjoyable experience for all players. Balancing classes and addressing player concerns is crucial for the long-term success and enjoyment of any online game.

[Detangler]

A touch of destro bias in that OP, so take it with a grain of salt.

Couple things:

1. Access to certain tactics does not make a class significantly better than its counterpart, as you must choose a certain tactic in place of another.

Easy example - chosen tactic for -10% crit chance. It's pretty good, but is it better or worse than 160 toughness? Renown point wise, 160 toughness costs a lot more renown points than -10% crit chance. If a 2h chosen decides to take it over something else, what are they giving up to take it? This point is often lost in arguments and essays.

2. Swordmaster 25% parry buff is a garbage utility due to its extremely short duration and SM ability balance mechanics making it extremely difficult to keep up 100% of the time. It would require a serious loss of DPS to keep that buff up a lot.

3. RP V Zealot. RP has access to a lot of useful tactics that Zealot does not - 1/2 stun duration, armor, ranged snare chance on 15 sec dot tick, aoe punt CD reduction + snare. Zealot has a very limited selection of useful tactics. RP also has a greater ability to provide aoe support damage with Rune of Battle that Zealot does not have while not hindering healing abilities.

4. One thing you didnt mention is that the BO has probably the highest damage potential on squishy targets among tanks in the game. The one saving grace of the worst tank is that it can do decent damage, but it still won't compare to real DPS classes and does not make up for lack of real utility that other tanks can provide. Shield BO is probably the worst tank spec I've ever had the misfortune of playing.

5. Slayer's unblockable aoe disarm is probably the most overlooked powerful utility in the game that no one seems to talk about. Seriously.

6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels.

7. The proposed counters to rampage and GtdC by keyboard warriors are laughable. Just shatter barely works in small scale scenarios, and good luck constantly taunting/interrupting all the choppas in a zerg every 20 seconds. Stop kidding yourself and everyone else about it as it will not work even 30% of the time.