[BO]dulled down

[Nefarian78]

BOs complains drops da serva

I disagree with some authors ere who disregard long punt for BO.

Its the most powerful ability after guard itself. If you cant punt away enemy tanks, then you are half efficient. I insist that its a mandatory as a guard ability.

So, the long punt must've imho.

Other abilities must be reworked also, dis i agree. BO is dulled as the topic author wrote.

And then what? It t will likely have an extremely pricey oppurtunity cost in the form of a tactic slot forcing to drop Wounds or a massive amount of damage with either Stab You Gooder, Gork Smash or you can decide to commit suicide and drop Guud at Big Choppin. You are arguably worse off than not having one.

Every tank brings something to the table, so let's just compare (in a void) the class defining tools each meta 2h smallscale build brings including the changes that might happen with the rework. Starting with Order.

Kobs: undefendable aoe snare, on demand KD, punt, 15% healing for the entire group + Ap + res from auras, 10% crit chance on aoe, 90+ aoe wounds debuff, all with 100% uptime with talk of double/triple shatter confidence coming back. Low support damage

Literally the strongest class in the game by a mile to the point that not even Slayers come close. Mandatory in all content. Possibly getting a huge buff.

IB: On demand KD, punt, infinite AP for the whole group, 25% parry + initiative , str + 10% crit, 1088 armor debuff, aoe snare, 20% reduced chance to crit on target, and other less game changing buffs. Okay-ish support damage.

Another very solid kit especially if you know how to read the sitaution and can manage 2 oathfriends, although The IB population is still stuck using every buff in a sequencer rotation and complaining about lacking GCDs so there's that. Excellent for both roaming and 6v6

SM: 10% reduced chance to defend on target, cooldown reducer, 25% self parry, 110 rng stat steal, double spirit res debuff coming back, ST punt, highest damage from a tank in the game and basically impossible to kill cause of WoDS.

Seems less impressive in a void but then you take into consideration the amount of spirit damage order brings to the table or learn what it means to have 2 slayers applying 4 IDs. Can swap the 10% reduced defense on dazzling to a mechanic locked KD or aoe 1k+ absorb. Unlike BO, it has versatile tactic slots if the punt will indeed require a tactic slot. Solid for roaming and if both ST punt aswell as double res debuff become a thing a solid argument can be made for SMs being the strongest 6v6 class in the game.

Destro:

Chosen: On demand KD, punt, 25% self parry, -10% crit chance on all party with solid uptime, -10% chance to be crit on self, AP + res + str/tough from auras, 75 aoe wounds debuff, basically immortal with m2. Low support damage.

It's not a kobs, but it still brings stuff to the table. Mandatory for most content.

BG: On demand KD, 120 wounds debuff on crit, 10% crit on aoe, aoe snare, parry/hatred on self, best punt in the game, 10% aoe reduced parry/block, 1200 armor debuff, 20% reduced chance to crit on target other and minor buffs/debuffs. Decent support damage.

Again an exceptional tank, excellent for all content. Not much else needs to be said.

BO: 120 WS to defensive target, exists in any capacity for only 66% of the time during You Wot?!, Mechanic locked KD, ST punt, 120 rng stat steal, 990 armor debuff. Other very minor debuffs, decent support damage.

That's it, that's the entire class. Do you see where the problem is now? It's not the punt. Do you honestly really think a punt, even if it has no opportunity cost, is enough? It's a tank that is more vulnerable than a Mdps since it has no detaunt and I won't even get into itemization because SOMEHOW it gets even worse when taken into account.

Whether BO has a punt or not doesn't matter whatsoever. It needs to be almost entirely redesigned because it brings absolutely nothing.

[Culexus]

Well....at least we look cool

As Nefarian78 says, There are 0 situations were it's better to have a BO over a Chosen or BG.

BO needs an actual identity as a class. The class mechanic could also do with a rework as the one positive of the mechanic isn't enough to out way the negatives.

Personally, if the Chosen is the defence/utility buff tank and the BG is the debuff/CC tank i'd like to see BO become the damage/offensive buff tank. Make the BO a brawler tank that can put out some decent dps and provide offensive buffs to the group. It would fit the lore and aesthetic of the BO and finally give us a dedicated role in group play the other tanks can't provide. As the SM is already the best dps tank it already mirrors with that nicely.

I'd also like the stance mechanic for BO and SM to just give a flat buff to go with the brawler theme. Change the mechanic to match Gork Smash! with a 0 % > 10% > 20% crit chance increase depending on stance.

[Bozzax]

THC for SnB and a ST punt nothing more is needed tbh and I think it is fair to say dest is far behind in burst-assist-train. BO brings quite alot more then listed above but it takes some tinkering to handle well

PS. Rampage is broken bc of weapon skill bloat, inc cap, undef guard avoidance and toughness mit cap this makes rampage way more effective then even on live.

[anstalt]

I'm pretty casual in RoR so I've no idea about endgame meta's or anything like that, im only RR64 on my BO. I still have fun playing my BO, and imo it still has one of the best armour sets in any game: the sovreign set. I just love it and want it!


One of the big things I'd say is that I have an absolute ton of tactics that feel like they'd make the class a lot of fun.......but they're all worse than the "mandatory" tactics.


For example, I've been S'n'B pretty much the whole way through (because I've never been able to afford off-spec). So, to me it feels mandatory to have the +10% block tactic, the +5/10% block/parry with plans tactic, plus the toughness tactic. That leaves me only one tactic to experiment with.....but that's nearly always wounds tactic (rvr) or morale tactic (scs).


I'd love to get to a point where the majority of tactics felt relevant. Give us more options!


Like, I've always liked the idea of the tactic that gives healing when our shouts trigger. Stat steal shout + heal tactic + 2hander should mean a good amount of group healing. Or the tactic that turns our weapon skill and toughness buffs into group buffs. Very awesome! Except not as good as the mandatory ones, so i never slot it.

[Toggle]

BOs complains drops da serva

I disagree with some authors ere who disregard long punt for BO.

Its the most powerful ability after guard itself. If you cant punt away enemy tanks, then you are half efficient. I insist that its a mandatory as a guard ability.

So, the long punt must've imho.

Other abilities must be reworked also, dis i agree. BO is dulled as the topic author wrote.

And then what? It t will likely have an extremely pricey oppurtunity cost in the form of a tactic slot forcing to drop Wounds or a massive amount of damage with either Stab You Gooder, Gork Smash or you can decide to commit suicide and drop Guud at Big Choppin. You are arguably worse off than not having one.

Every tank brings something to the table, so let's just compare (in a void) the class defining tools each meta 2h smallscale build brings including the changes that might happen with the rework. Starting with Order.

Kobs: undefendable aoe snare, on demand KD, punt, 15% healing for the entire group + Ap + res from auras, 10% crit chance on aoe, 90+ aoe wounds debuff, all with 100% uptime with talk of double/triple shatter confidence coming back. Low support damage

Literally the strongest class in the game by a mile to the point that not even Slayers come close. Mandatory in all content. Possibly getting a huge buff.

IB: On demand KD, punt, infinite AP for the whole group, 25% parry + initiative , str + 10% crit, 1088 armor debuff, aoe snare, 20% reduced chance to crit on target, and other less game changing buffs. Okay-ish support damage.

Another very solid kit especially if you know how to read the sitaution and can manage 2 oathfriends, although The IB population is still stuck using every buff in a sequencer rotation and complaining about lacking GCDs so there's that. Excellent for both roaming and 6v6

SM: 10% reduced chance to defend on target, cooldown reducer, 25% self parry, 110 rng stat steal, double spirit res debuff coming back, ST punt, highest damage from a tank in the game and basically impossible to kill cause of WoDS.

Seems less impressive in a void but then you take into consideration the amount of spirit damage order brings to the table or learn what it means to have 2 slayers applying 4 IDs. Can swap the 10% reduced defense on dazzling to a mechanic locked KD or aoe 1k+ absorb. Unlike BO, it has versatile tactic slots if the punt will indeed require a tactic slot. Solid for roaming and if both ST punt aswell as double res debuff become a thing a solid argument can be made for SMs being the strongest 6v6 class in the game.

Destro:

Chosen: On demand KD, punt, 25% self parry, -10% crit chance on all party with solid uptime, -10% chance to be crit on self, AP + res + str/tough from auras, 75 aoe wounds debuff, basically immortal with m2. Low support damage.

It's not a kobs, but it still brings stuff to the table. Mandatory for most content.

BG: On demand KD, 120 wounds debuff on crit, 10% crit on aoe, aoe snare, parry/hatred on self, best punt in the game, 10% aoe reduced parry/block, 1200 armor debuff, 20% reduced chance to crit on target other and minor buffs/debuffs. Decent support damage.

Again an exceptional tank, excellent for all content. Not much else needs to be said.

BO: 120 WS to defensive target, exists in any capacity for only 66% of the time during You Wot?!, Mechanic locked KD, ST punt, 120 rng stat steal, 990 armor debuff. Other very minor debuffs, decent support damage.

That's it, that's the entire class. Do you see where the problem is now? It's not the punt. Do you honestly really think a punt, even if it has no opportunity cost, is enough? It's a tank that is more vulnerable than a Mdps since it has no detaunt and I won't even get into itemization because SOMEHOW it gets even worse when taken into account.

Whether BO has a punt or not doesn't matter whatsoever. It needs to be almost entirely redesigned because it brings absolutely nothing.

I thought SM’s ST punt was shield only since it requires block, and you were discussing 2H 6v6 stuff. Or am I mistaken?

[Nefarian78]

I thought SM’s ST punt was shield only since it requires block, and you were discussing 2H 6v6 stuff. Or am I mistaken?

I was not referring to the current SM block-punt. Both SM and BO are very likely to get a standard punt like the other tanks in the coming patches.

The point of my post is to show that with or without ST punt, BO is a dead class. The only difference is that if BOs get punt the devs will just call it good enough like they did with You Wot?! so we'll be stuck with BOs being useless for 3 more years while SM will become stupidly overpowered.

[shoelessHN]

I really don't like this proposals, in which every tank has long punt, the more differences between classes the better.

It was a good decision to take it form BO. Two abilities like this for destro was too much. It's a pity that in my opinion the black orc didn't get something more interesting in return. I agree that Black Orc is currently the weakest tank, and class need some attention.

Nah was a huge mistake. Some core things that are fundamental to the game should be mirrored on both sides.

SM/BO having that was key to balance. Both classes also need a single target punt or a tactic that makes your punt single.

There is Chop Fasta! for destro. On Live server this ability cooldown was 2 min, here is 40 sec.

Both classes don't need single target punt. In current meta, which was established about 2 years ago, BO/SM role is to kd second tank to prevent guard swap when the first tank is punted.

This isn't live. Both the other tanks can KD and punt. BO is useless in "meta". Until BO gets CD reducer back and/or a good single target punt it is a completely useless tank. Clearly Chop Fasta would be replaced if BO got the CD reducer back. And there's plenty of differences between the tanks without making BO useless a difference.

[Azhag]

For example, I've been S'n'B pretty much the whole way through (because I've never been able to afford off-spec). So, to me it feels mandatory to have the +10% block tactic, the +5/10% block/parry with plans tactic, plus the toughness tactic. That leaves me only one tactic to experiment with.....but that's nearly always wounds tactic (rvr) or morale tactic (scs).

You don't really have a choice, as morale pump and AoE slow/disorent tactics are mandatory. There is no room for wounds, toughness, and especially not for a heal tactic, which is fluff.

[joaolol]

So... whats next?

By any chance any of the balance propositions (viewforum.php?f=95) made in the past years are being taken into consideration? Or this is just waste of time?

I feel like everything we discussed here demand from the DEV team small effort to implement and are big wins for the entire RoR community... Its very far away, impact wise, from choppa vs slayer...

[Gladiolix]

So... whats next?

By any chance any of the balance propositions (viewforum.php?f=95) made in the past years are being taken into consideration? Or this is just waste of time?

I feel like everything we discussed here demand from the DEV team small effort to implement and are big wins for the entire RoR community... Its very far away, impact wise, from choppa vs slayer...

This one will be released in the near future: viewtopic.php?t=51417

After it will come the first proper balance pass. At earliest, this is where anything is going to happen.