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White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

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Ninjagon
Posts: 483

White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#1 » Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:55 pm

Hello.
First of all big thanx to developers for all the hard work they put into this free and awesome project!

I would like to address the provisional changes for White Lions.
For quick info, the recent patch notes for WL are there:
Spoiler:
Bug Fixes

- Baiting Strike, Cleave Limb, Hack - Tooltip corrected to match damage.

Balance Changes

- Blindside - Stat damage multiplier changed from 1 to 0.75 to be correct for abilities with instant damage and a dot component.

- Shattering Blow - Added weapon damage contribution.

- Slashing Blade - reverted cost back to 50 action points.

- Loner - No longer removes cooldown on Pounce.

- Pounce - Reduced base damage but this ability can again critically hit.

- Call War Lion - damage no longer reduced when far away from the player.

- Brutal Pounce - Increased cost to 25 Action Points.

- Echoing Roar - Is now a curse.

- Hack and Slash - Action Point reduction adjusted to -15 Action Points for Slashing Blade and Hack. Armor penetration adjusted to 25% but converted to be additive with Weapon Skill and other armor penetration sources.

- Cleaver - Morale removed.

- Sundering Chop - Reworked to 15% additive armor penetration if attack is done from behind.
Feedback:

+ Stat damage multiplier for Blindside is correct and on par with other abilities in the game
+ Changes for Sundering Chop and Shattering Blow should be correct and again on par with other similar abilities of other classes
+ Change for Echoing Roar (curse) is correct
+ AP cost increase for Brutal Pounce is not that significant and should be correct

- Changes to Slashing Blade: cost 50 action points and to the Hack and Slash tactic: - 15 AP, and changes for armor penetration.
While the armor penetration part of the changes are correct and on par with other abilities the action points changes are massive.
Slashing Blade is essential ability for AOE WL play. While in the current live state (cost 35 AP and the Hack and Slash tactic reduces the AP cost even more by 50%), it is still relative hard to maintain enough action points in fight, because of many AP drain abilities destruction have, even with the support of Knight AP aura, healers AP proc tactics or Ironbreaker AP support and AP potions. With these provisional changes, the AP cost for Slashing Blade will be nearly doubled to the point that the AOE White Lion will very fast end up unable to fight. Please reconsider these changes.

- Loner - No longer removes cooldown on Pounce. Reduced base damage but this ability can again critically hit.
Because of the various kiting abilities Destruction characters have (for example shaman), and the lack of pulling options on the Order side, the repeatable Pounce was very often the only way how to catch the enemy trying to escape from the fight. The reduced damage on the Pounce ability is insignificant. Remember, that the White Lion HAVE TO sacrifice his Lion for this tactic. Please reconsider the ability change to Pounce repeatedly once again.

- Cleaver - Morale removed.
With this change White Lions cannot join the coordinated morale 2 drop with other Order characters. The changes will have ever bigger impact on the meta game, due to general morale changes: Extended the area of effect cap of certain morale effects from 9 to 24 targets.
While the White Lion's mirror - Marauder, keeps his M2: Great Fang (1200 AOE damage 40 feet in front), the White Lions only M2 damage ability would be Flying Axe (1200 damage over 9 seconds 65 feet in front) which is a lot weaker. Considering the various morale drain abilities Destruction have (Marauder,..) this change looks pretty unbalanced. Please reconsider this change.

Thx for reading :-)
Ninjab - The White Lion. RETRIBUTION / DEVASTATION guild.
Also: Velmires - WP, Carnow - Knight, Ninjagon - BW / Ninjamar - mara, Khaininja - DoK
Spoiler:
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Scragmuncher
Posts: 20

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#2 » Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:09 pm

Adding a CD back to pounce with this change seems like a huge nerf, and not just for WL but the faction in general. Destro has a staggering amount of extra movement options that Order just doesn't have. Removing one of the only very reliable gap closers seems completely unnecessary and will have much more of an impact on balance than just a simple class mechanic change.

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Sever1n
Posts: 236

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#3 » Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:36 pm

I agree. This changes are weird and nerfing working and balanced class in such way i cannot understand. And was zero buffs to take back sw/engi in group play. BW is also very optional. With 10sec pounce u jump 1 time got sucked back into blob lose your ap in 5 sec with low penetration to deal zero dmg on guarded chopas and can move only 10sec of antisnare coz after u permasnared by covenant of celerity. Lions is only thing that can treat destro heals but now they basicalky freecast in top of their ridiculous defences. And they whole gameplay based on position. With changes u doomed use jumps only for assist slayers with it and dealf half of their dmg becose 100%parry bg, uwots, and other balanced things destro forget to mention when they cry about rampages. BIS lion dont even have capped str, and hitin on his ap/penetration/position jast make it shiity version of slay. Whos idea was to do this? Some changes are so weird in list that it fells like they made by people who dont play this classes. That was realm champions feedback? Cos if it is they dont undertand what are the doing. We needed changes for asw, skirm sw, engi, 2h kotbs, bw/sorks, maguses, to see them in warband with potentional of other dps and their utility. But fir some reason u just cripling whats working.
Noximilien - AM, Severi - SM, Ravandin - SW, Celebor - WL, Ernwald - WH, Demandred - BG.

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bittrio
Posts: 147

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#4 » Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:47 pm

I'd like to see a game mode with no morale and 0 cooldowns on all abilities.
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Fey
Posts: 813

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#5 » Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:59 am

No cooldown pounce is the trolliest thing I've seen in a video game. I specifically remember on live playing a Caledor Woods against a WL who only used pounce. 5 sec CD with loner is fine.

Destros, staggering, extra movement options are one racial tactic affecting two classes, and one rdps ability, or am I missing something? Meanwhile IB has Powered Etchings, kotbs has Slice Through. Order's 2 ranged KD or stagger are perfectly viable counters, and of course Run Away has an internal cooldown.
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normanis
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Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#6 » Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:44 am

ppl will start play more slayers and spam more rampage. i dont think counter side will like it more.
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

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Bignusty
Posts: 454

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#7 » Wed Aug 23, 2023 9:17 am

normanis wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:44 am ppl will start play more slayers and spam more rampage. i dont think counter side will like it more.
Yup

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Ninjagon
Posts: 483

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#8 » Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:13 pm

At last, the changes are not definitive yet. Lets wait for the news from today (Developer Update):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVZwYf3glAM
Ninjab - The White Lion. RETRIBUTION / DEVASTATION guild.
Also: Velmires - WP, Carnow - Knight, Ninjagon - BW / Ninjamar - mara, Khaininja - DoK
Spoiler:
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Ninjagon
Posts: 483

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#9 » Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:07 pm

So there are the devs decisions to remove M2 Cleaver for White Lions:

Video about WL's starts at 6:47:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVZwYf3 ... LL&index=1

Cleaver lacks
- distinct visual effects
- unique animation
- exclusive icon

A change would have required considerable effort. So there is "new" M2: Flying axe.

Instead of instant 1200 front AOE damage, there will be 1200 front AOE damage over 9 seconds = 3x (400 damage within 3 second).
That is a huge nerf to any coordinated morale play for White Lions.

If we evaluate other changes, especially 2x higher AP cost for Slashing Blade - from 35 AP (18 AP with tactic) to 50 AP (35 AP with tactic), which is the core ability for AOE play, and the weaker armor penetration, AOE White Lion's can expect a really hard time.
Ninjab - The White Lion. RETRIBUTION / DEVASTATION guild.
Also: Velmires - WP, Carnow - Knight, Ninjagon - BW / Ninjamar - mara, Khaininja - DoK
Spoiler:
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Tisaya
Posts: 26

Re: White Lion feedback to 1.4.8. provisional changes

Post#10 » Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:48 pm

What about the 15% armour pen from sundering chop instead of fixed amount, isn't it a straight up buff? Especially if you don't invest into axeman

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