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[BW] The fireclown

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest
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wonshot
Posts: 1105

[BW] The fireclown

Post#1 » Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:05 pm

Hello,

Brightwizard sure is a class with some history. And still till this day devide the waters wether its "omg overtuned needs to be nerfed" or in the other end of the spectrum of "lol this guy walking up doing annihilate, what a freekill".
Today I'd like to talk about some of the Brighty issues and would like to hear some other ideas about the class and some of the overlap to it's soft-mirror Sorc on the general areas of this class mechanic and ability arsenal.

First of all, the Singletarget timestamp.
This is the build for doing smallscale and scenarios, no doubt about it!
But there is also no alternative, so even for people who dont enjoy this backloaded playstyle you cant really go and make a "Cast speed reduction" build and do consistant damage pressure with either hard casting spells or channeling spells.
T1 gameplay is pretty much evidence of this, you dont have any of the class defining tools to make the singletarget build so you are in this akward situation of hard building Combustion by standing and casting. In contrast to Endgame where you can reach full class mechanic before or even while setting up your timestamp and poof the ungaurded choppa is no more as you snap your fingers like in the Cinematic *Snap*

Archtype defining abilitity
At level 10 most classes get a really class defining ability which helps them unlock their playstyle.
Rogues gets stealth, tanks gets guard, healers get ressurect, melee dps gets charge. And we get... Aoe root :roll:
As long as aoe root is deemed a free immunity or a "panic" button the mage classes just feel leftout of this graduation ceramony at level ten.
An option could be that root would be an only defensive option, and would debuff the user after applying it for X seconds, or drop the class mechanic to 0 when used or something something. But right now root breaks too fast after its applied and the value of the immunity in smallerscale is too big of a price to pay to really make root be the main defensive ability for kiting someone chasing you.

Closecombat caster
One of the few builds that got nerfed on Live, and on RoR, and still have many different variations and tactic slots being used. But wait a second, for the close quaters mage playstyle, the tactic named "Close Quaters" is not actually used. That seems.. odd.. :|
The old Live CQ tactic was a playstyle defining tactic, if you wanted to be up close you would deal less damage to enemies far away. Seemed fine but the raw damage portion was too much so it got restricted into lowering casttime and now this tactic is Best in Slot for PVE but not used in PVP.
Instead slotting alot of Proc tactics and relying on applying fast hitting aoe attacks such as Annihilate channel up front while standing still as a toilet paper protected caster is the way.
What if CQ gave double armor while being in melee range after landing an annihilate or fieryblast, or if it made us be able to channel on the move like all the melee dps classes who are not reliant on breaching sevral stacks of Hold the Line, while all of our armor can be stripped away by a singletarget armordebuff.
Just spitballing some thoughts here, but it does seem like the Mythic nerf to CQ could be an obvious way of making this into a pvp tactic one again.

That one button build
Alright so where the Singletarget build is struggling to do consistant damage from afar and instead needs to be spikey, aoe can actually be applied consistantly with fairly easy counterplay. By holding down Rain of Fire. Granted only one BW at a time can do this as RoF doesnt stack and a silence, taunt or walking up and beating on the caster will do the trick. So here is an example of when consistant damage works, maybe the channeling abilities in singletarget needs to be more than just the first tick and then interrupt it. What if the singletarget abilities were ramping up over time to offer an alternative to the Timestamping, that would make these casters immobile when outputting and offer gameplay in pushing on them or interrupting to stop the damage.

Just a couple of suggestions for changes to Brightwizard:
- Firecage aoe root cant be broken for 1.5sec and debuffs the casters damage for 10sec
- Close Quaters tactic is looked at being pvp used again in one way or an other
- Flamebreath as an aoe filler ability deals DD instead of DoT on first tick
- Alternative singletarget damage is available outside of Timestamping
- Mage career pbaoe channels can be used on the move?

Now does BW need any buffs? Probably not. But all of the careers should be up for debate right, and with the ability rework on its way and balancing once again on the menu why not talk about it?
Or should the class just remain as Timestamper, Closequater bomber but without CQ tactic, or rain of fire internal fighting which one gets to do damage on the spot
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Zxul
Posts: 1396

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#2 » Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:32 pm

wonshot wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:05 pm Closecombat caster
What if CQ gave double armor while being in melee range after landing an annihilate or fieryblast, or if it made us be able to channel on the move like all the melee dps classes who are not reliant on breaching sevral stacks of Hold the Line, while all of our armor can be stripped away by a singletarget armordebuff.
Just spitballing some thoughts here, but it does seem like the Mythic nerf to CQ could be an obvious way of making this into a pvp tactic one again.
Don't touch my sorc main pvp tactic lol.

Also, not sure why are you so big about armor, its useless on sorc (or on most classes which ain't tanks). On several classes I now roam without even armor pot (spirit pot does better there), so 1 k armor total, and do just fine.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

DirkDaring
Posts: 425

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#3 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:44 pm

Yup on live the first 6 months of game, Close quarters increased damage by 50% when within 20ft, now its mostly pve tactic. also scorched earth/surging pain, built combustion/dark magic, instead of reducing it. The mechanic was changed as well, it used to be 50% chance to crit, and 50% chance to backlash.

Rain of fire/pit of shades used to stack, but was changed early on live , a few months into game at launch. crown of fire used to affect the whole group, now its self only.

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Aluviya
Posts: 135

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#4 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm

wonshot wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:05 pm Now does BW need any buffs? Probably not. But all of the careers should be up for debate right, and with the ability rework on its way and balancing once again on the menu why not talk about it?
Or should the class just remain as Timestamper, Closequater bomber but without CQ tactic, or rain of fire internal fighting which one gets to do damage on the spot
I think all range DPS need to be revised specifically in the way they interact with same class and with other classes both order and destru. To name a few observations/poor class interactions that are externaly capping the BW's potential:

1. Squigherders : are undenieably the most mobile class in the game overloaded with both escape and utility opposing a serious threat to the BW
2. Shadowwarrior: Fills into the same role as a Squigherder in terms of proving healdebuff + damage for the ST rotation but always at the cost of having to give up on the safe distance and mobility while rotating.
3. Tzeentch's Talon: a huge resistance and armor debuff that synergises with all DPS classes on destru without a compareable counterpart on order (and no, the defensive WP M1 has not at all a similar effect)
4. Better gap closers vs Range on destruction:
a) Marauder : Pull is way harder to counter than the WL pull as Pet can be CC'ed, killed or generally missleaded due to poor pathfinding
b) Witch Elf: stealth pouncing opener, 30 ft channel ability with high damage
c) Disciple of Khaine: Covenant procs last 9 secs and have in the big picture a way way higher chance to snare order RDPs as for instance as a squigherder does not require to stand still to apply autoattacks and both sorc and magus have several damaging direct abilities while a Warriorpriest is capped at 65 ft range to apply the corresponding skill to snare for 2 secs.
5. Better solo tank for range assist groups on destruction BG has wounds debuff and high parry and a long punt while the corresponding debuff is given to KOTBS with low parry

Finally I still have to mention that with the ongoing 1 Tank 3 RDPS 2 Healer meta: I generally believe we need to come up with an idea how to balance the timestamping with 3 RDPS.
Last edited by Aluviya on Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Zxul
Posts: 1396

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#5 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:49 pm

Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm 1. Squigherders : are undenieably the most mobile classe in the game overloaded with both escape and utility opposing a serious threat to the BW
As a ranged class with a nice list of instacast spells, really not sure how you are worrying about sh as a bw.
Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm2. Shadowwarrior: Fills into the same role as a Squigherder in terms of proving healdebuff + damage for the ST rotation but always at the cost of having to give up on the safe distance and mobility while rotating.
However has better melee burst, etc.
Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm3. Tzeentch's Talon: a huge resistance and armor debuff that synergises with all DPS classes on destru without a compareable counterpart on order (and no, the defensive WP M1 has not at all a similar effect) having a great effect if
One thing which destro has, which however order has plenty of other things to compensate for. Like, for example, wh's armor debuff which WE don't get.

Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm4. Better gap closers vs Range on destruction:
a) Marauder : Pull is way harder to counter than the WL pull as Pet can be CC'ed, killed or generally missleaded due to poor pathfinding
However unlike wl, mara doesn't has pounce.
Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pmb) Witch Elf: stealth pouncing opener, 30 ft channel ability with high damage
From having 80+ WE- in most situations that 30 ft range stealth pouncing opener is useless. Unlike, again, wh's armor debuff opener which WE doesn't gets.

And wh has the same 30 ft channel ability with high damage- Trial by Pain. So you really have no idea what are you talking about.
Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pmc) Disciple of Khaine: Covenant procs last 9 secs and have in the big picture a way way higher chance to snare order RDPs as for instance as a squigheder does not require to stand still to apply autoattacks and both sorc and magus have several damaging direct abilities while a Warriorpriest is capped at 65 ft range to apply the corresponding skill to snare for 2 secs.
And order has other abilities which destro doesn't has. Like for example, chosen not having kotb's aoe snare, or destro not having a class with wl's combination of pounce and burst (msh burst isn't anywhere near).
Aluviya wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:31 pm5. Better solo tank for range assist groups on destruction BG has wounds debuff and high parry and a long punt while the corresponding debuff is given to KOTBS with low parry
That's a mirror of chosen's wounds debuff, not bg's. And order has team wounds buff on wp- while destro doesn't has one. Or, for that matter, kotb has +15% team healing tactic, which chosen doesn't gets.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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CyunUnderis
Posts: 492
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Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#6 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:21 pm

Zxul wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:49 pm ...
I think you are misunderstaning what Aluviya is trying to say. From what I understand (and I agree), this is harder to play a BW in a RDPS composition on Order side because of the various points he made like pulls (Maraudeur & Choppa), tanks with tools to catch magical RDPS like Endless Persuit (BG), Elite Training (BG) or Siphoned Energy (Chosen), the 40ft in front AoE snare (BG), M1 Talon that helps RDPS kill a tank very fast, Covenent of Celerity, etc ...

Sure, Order has different tools (Pounce on WL, Festering Arrow with Vengeful, KD on Ignite for BW...) but it doesn't change the fact that for a BW, this is harder to shine in a RDPS composition compared to a Sorcerer.

PS : BG has also the Wounds debuff thanks to the tactic Hastened Doom.

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Aluviya
Posts: 135

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#7 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:55 pm

CyunUnderis wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:21 pm
Zxul wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:49 pm ...
I think you are misunderstaning what Aluviya is trying to say. From what I understand (and I agree), this is harder to play a BW in a RDPS composition on Order side because of the various points he made like pulls (Maraudeur & Choppa), tanks with tools to catch magical RDPS like Endless Persuit (BG), Elite Training (BG) or Siphoned Energy (Chosen), the 40ft in front AoE snare (BG), M1 Talon that helps RDPS kill a tank very fast, Covenent of Celerity, etc ...

Sure, Order has different tools (Pounce on WL, Festering Arrow with Vengeful, KD on Ignite for BW...) but it doesn't change the fact that for a BW, this is harder to shine in a RDPS composition compared to a Sorcerer.

PS : BG has also the Wounds debuff thanks to the tactic Hastened Doom.
Thanks for clarifying yes, that was exactly what I was trying to explain, my post was purely made from the POV of a BW and order RDPS

Zxul
Posts: 1396

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#8 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:59 pm

CyunUnderis wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:21 pm
Zxul wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:49 pm ...
I think you are misunderstaning what Aluviya is trying to say. From what I understand (and I agree), this is harder to play a BW in a RDPS composition on Order side because of the various points he made like pulls (Maraudeur & Choppa), tanks with tools to catch magical RDPS like Endless Persuit (BG), Elite Training (BG) or Siphoned Energy (Chosen), the 40ft in front AoE snare (BG), M1 Talon that helps RDPS kill a tank very fast, Covenent of Celerity, etc ...

Sure, Order has different tools (Pounce on WL, Festering Arrow with Vengeful, KD on Ignite for BW...) but it doesn't change the fact that for a BW, this is harder to shine in a RDPS composition compared to a Sorcerer.

PS : BG has also the Wounds debuff thanks to the tactic Hastened Doom.
Lets see. Pulls like I said- wl not just with pull and pounce, but with combination of high frontload burst, pull, and pounce. Siphoned Energy (Chosen)- same tactic on IB- Avalanche. The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets. Like m1 65 ft pounce+ aoe snare on SM, m1 30 ft root on IB, aoe snare ability on kotb, etc.

And like I mentioned, while BG has the wounds debuff, wp has party wounds buff which destro doesn't has.

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Aluviya
Posts: 135

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#9 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:08 pm

Zxul wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:59 pm
CyunUnderis wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:21 pm
Zxul wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:49 pm ...
I think you are misunderstaning what Aluviya is trying to say. From what I understand (and I agree), this is harder to play a BW in a RDPS composition on Order side because of the various points he made like pulls (Maraudeur & Choppa), tanks with tools to catch magical RDPS like Endless Persuit (BG), Elite Training (BG) or Siphoned Energy (Chosen), the 40ft in front AoE snare (BG), M1 Talon that helps RDPS kill a tank very fast, Covenent of Celerity, etc ...

Sure, Order has different tools (Pounce on WL, Festering Arrow with Vengeful, KD on Ignite for BW...) but it doesn't change the fact that for a BW, this is harder to shine in a RDPS composition compared to a Sorcerer.

PS : BG has also the Wounds debuff thanks to the tactic Hastened Doom.
Lets see. Pulls like I said- wl not just with pull and pounce, but with combination of high frontload burst, pull, and pounce. Siphoned Energy (Chosen)- same tactic on IB- Avalanche. The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets. Like m1 65 ft pounce+ aoe snare on SM, m1 30 ft root on IB, aoe snare ability on kotb, etc.

And like I mentioned, while BG has the wounds debuff, wp has party wounds buff which destro doesn't has.

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.
Have you ever seen a WL pushing into a 3 RDPS group poucing out of guard range - you better not :) (and you won't as the WL will explode the moment he pounces up to a 3 RDPs comp). I don't know why you claim that we have no clue while stating your opinion (which is completely fine to do so). But this post is about adressing the issue of BW. You can't play the same IB (nor any other order tank) 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have (end of the discussion here from my side). I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match ;)

lumpi33
Posts: 422

Re: [BW] The fireclown

Post#10 » Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:15 pm

Ranged dps, especially channeled aoe falling short in many aspects compared to melee aoe dps.

- you can't stack it
- you can't move the ground target, which is very bad in a fast paced game where everything is moving around
- you have to stand still while channeling, while melees come towards you like a mad train
- when someone else channels the same spot you waste your cooldown and AP for literally 0 damage
- the damage is kind of lacking, the pressure is not enough to do harm. It's super easy to cancel it out with absorbs, hots, heals, disrupt and guard.

With these limitations and the non-stacking in place it would be better if ranged dps could set up the channel and then be able to do something else while it is ticking. More like a dot.
The easier approach would be to just reduce the tick intervals and/or up the scaling of the abilities. Aoe damage every 2 seconds from only one source is just not enough the way it is.

Casted aoe is also worse than melee aoe. Long cast times and if the line of sight breaks for a moment it was all for nothing. Every class with non target aoe is a lot easier to play and also more effective.

Melee aoe with superior mobility, damage and crowed control dominate the battlefield. Not hard to see why.

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