Some Ranked Statistics

[Mordd]

Its just solo roam build chosen. Really dosent matter in team play game.

Its just 6v6 KoBS. Really doesnt matter in a massive ORVR game.

Orvr is not only zerg playstyle.
Anyway KotBS is a king of all tanks at any apect of the game: ranked, sc, orvr.
If u dont see it prob u play only one order side.

As I had posted earlier, Im ok with balancing around ranked and giving chosen and choppa love and the 7 order classes that under perform compared to destro.

[Arbich]

One thing I'd like to address is that while a high skill cap on certain classes seems like a plausible explanation for why certain classes are seeing less participation than others, doesn't that mean that IB and Blackguard are expected lower on the list? In both measurements I have taken they are at the top in terms of participation for both Order and Destro. Are these classes less hard to play than is often assumed? Or is there some other explanation?

You interpret your own data wrong and thats the problem with your data. Your data show total participation.

If you want to know something about the "skill cap" of different classes, you can find indicators in the ranked data:
The highest mmr IB is on position 49. Way below other classes.
No IB has a very good (2:1 or at least close to it) win rate.
IB in general has a below average win rate.

Your list don´t show how strong/weak a class is.

[Caduceus]

You interpret your own data wrong and thats the problem with your data. Your data show total participation.

If you want to know something about the "skill cap" of different classes, you can find indicators in the ranked data:
The highest mmr IB is on position 49. Way below other classes.
No IB has a very good (2:1 or at least close to it) win rate.
IB in general has a below average win rate.

Your list don´t show how strong/weak a class is.

I'm not misinterpreting anything. I don't know where you are getting the idea from that I am making claims or statements about relative strength of classes.

We are just having an open discussion about what the numbers could mean and trying to explain the discrepancies.

Also, a class can have a high skill cap and still be weak.

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

So today I learned that 1393+1159 < 923 +1011.
"IB has highest participation".

The data is not bad bad, it's decent for the specific question of how well a class adapts to ranked, and to me it's a fairly simple explanation, which I put on second page, but here's the expanded version:

• Competitive players will more often pick the most competitive/meta classes

• Competitive/meta (or previously competitive) classes will more often have better gear, since they will have more spots in organized warbands/city

• Ranked Class preparedness - classes on the top of the list will have more similar ranked play-styles/specs to the main content, the ones at the bottom will have significantly different spec, tactics, and play-style in ranked

• Ranked Class Skill level requirements - all ranged classes will for example need to be good at positioning, pre-kiting, kiting, flee+potting while applying pressure back, none of which is important in the main content.
  Squishy MDPS will also need to know when to disengage, but this is closer to how their main content plays.
  Knowing burst rotation, while important on all DPS, the ones lower on the list relies on this heavily.
  
  Compare all this to for example KS/CH/IB/BG; can you punt and maybe guard swap, like in all other content? You good to go.

• Ranked equipment preparedness - understanding minimum required gear for your class, it's lowest for healers and tanks and highest for light armored DPS. And you'll also need 8-12 different pots (preferably blue) and linis, while the preparedness or lack thereof might be close between all classes, my guess would be more ranged will be unprepared simply because they take less heat in general

Of course, even after all that, you still have classes that are just less competitive, either by way of being more reliant on other classes/players (SM/BO and possibly some DPS classes) or just being weaker in ranked (ASW vs SL).

Spoiler:

So if we had one (1) person play the old career beast master/mistress that was planned to get implemented here during a short period, and they had 10 games played you think it would be fair to say that that career had 100% participation in solo ranked?

At this point in the conversation it's should be known that "highest participation" means "highest % continued ranked participation", despite that never being said explicitly by OP.
And yes it would be, since we are comparing % participation between classes, and have very low sample size for all classes anyway, the difference between Order being on top and destro is basically removing/adding 5 to the numerator on each class.

The problem with the numbers given in this thread is they are single points and thus do not give the options to interpret the results easily as there are no trends to follow.

That said I did some playing with the median of rr for classes played more than 10 games and noticed a certain mele class very high while anither mele class was low.

This result as such only showed that there was differences in the average and not anything about why or balance. When doing the median with toons over 1k the result was very different look two mobile dps classes became noticeable high numbers

<No graph supplied deliberately as these numbers with the data in ranked does not support conclusions only supposition>

My interpretation from the numbers of certain classes (only was able to look at classes with a reasonable population in each bracket, so not exhaustive numbers) was that there is:

A) indication that the lower bracket players may not be swapping to optimal build, pots ...
B) certain classes have a high skill cap (perform significantly better with certain players and awful in other players hands)
C) certain classes have low scaling with player skill

Wheather or not B or C are balance issues or QoL on certain classes is upto others .

In short statistics needs to be treated with heavy dose of sketasisim and alternative reasoning and investigations of trends needs to be done to understand what the numbers mean.

Thank you for your replies. This was the type of conversation I was hoping for when I made this thread.

I think these are valuable insights, all of which offer logical explanations for why the numbers are the way they are.


One thing I'd like to address is that while a high skill cap on certain classes seems like a plausible explanation for why certain classes are seeing less participation than others, doesn't that mean that IB and Blackguard are expected lower on the list? In both measurements I have taken they are at the top in terms of participation for both Order and Destro. Are these classes less hard to play than is often assumed? Or is there some other explanation?

From the stats I ran, IB was a class that was not great in o-1k+ view and ok in 1k+ rating (can’t remember how manny IB we’re in 1k bracket just now) this I interpret as they do not have a skill or build required to perform (not played one so can not comment) or players of them all have build/skill. The classes that appeared to be more aff3cted by the 1k bracket were classes which had separate st vs WB builds. Classes that had close or similar builds to rvr were not as significantly affected by 1k bracket

[Arbich]

You interpret your own data wrong and thats the problem with your data. Your data show total participation.

If you want to know something about the "skill cap" of different classes, you can find indicators in the ranked data:
The highest mmr IB is on position 49. Way below other classes.
No IB has a very good (2:1 or at least close to it) win rate.
IB in general has a below average win rate.

Your list don´t show how strong/weak a class is.

I'm not misinterpreting anything. I don't know where you are getting the idea from that I am making claims or statements about relative strength of classes.

We are just having an open discussion about what the numbers could mean and trying to explain the discrepancies.

Also, a class can have a high skill cap and still be weak.

I get the idea from the stuff I quoted.
"Are these classes less hard to play than is often assumed? "
Ok, you can argue its not a claim, due to the "?", but come on....
Is the earth actually flat, cause I can´t see the curve when looking at distance? Valid question also?

Your Numbers show that its easier to get a pop as a mdps in comparison to a rdps. The likely explanation is (only based on your numbers): double mdps are possible in a game, double rdps are not.

"Also, a class can have a high skill cap and still be weak"
Sure and you can also find indicators for this in the ranked data - of little value, due to small population (Grundgesamtheit ) - but not in the numbers you provided.

[Caduceus]

I get the idea from the stuff I quoted.
"Are these classes less hard to play than is often assumed? "
Ok, you can argue its not a claim, due to the "?", but come on....
Is the earth actually flat, cause I can´t see the curve when looking at distance? Valid question also?

If behind every comment I make you seek some evil intention or wild claim, then maybe it is time to take a break from this discussion.

If you choose not to, please stop yourself from making assumptions about what is going on in my head and simply ask me if you want me to clarify my position.

WIth that said, open discussion will continue, whether you like this or not.

[Caduceus]

From what I can tell, people call them hard to play because they have a lot of buffs/debuffs to manage to play "optimally", but really they only have a couple of critical ones, IB has Oathbound, kneecapper and armor debuff, BG has crimson death and armor debuff, in return BG has best ST punt in game and IB is the best guard buddy, which makes up for any perceived difficulty.

Got a low lvl BG with most of the skills, and just feels smoother than SM, free infinite AP, very good dmg, mechanic is rarely felt and doesn't bug, would guess they still feel easier/better at lvl 40.. IB might be a different story.

So between good punts, good burst dmg and good protection, it should be fairly easy to land a single win with these classes.

Ok, fair enough.

What do we make of classes that are at the bottom of the barrel, that neither seem to perform well in terms of participation, but also seem to level out around 1k+ MMR, if they are able to reach 1k+ MMR at all?

I think that it might be telling that certain classes seem to hit a ceiling around 1k MMR, which is when presumably matches get more competitive.