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Analyzing Order

https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44181

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Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:35 pm
by anarchypark
time has passed since weekend warfront introduced.
it was great encouragement to form a group.
both side ran premades at first.
it's time to look back, why destro premades keep rolling, order don't

mainly it's player issue.
order players are lazy, hesitant to form a group.
then ask again, why ?
it can't be only lazy ppl remain at order by chances.

here's my analisys. it's balance problem. surprise.
balance seems ok. but tiny unbalances are piling up like synergy.

know that i agree on almost everything from balance patches.
logic behind changes are correct i had no argument.
still, there's tiny little ones.
it's so tiny that you miss until it pile up.

main issue is unbalance in effort inputs.
it's 10 button press game.
while destro press 1 of 10 by themselves,
order need extra coordination from other players to get same effect.
it's easy to play destro, relatively.
you can get almost same performance with half drunk, relaxed play.
it's game. you wanna relaxed. if you can still win, why not go there?

detailed list
CD decrese. CD increse. Morale Pump. Morale Drain. AoE Snare. CC.
Spoiler:
CD decrese buff
SM - 10s duration, 20s CD.
Choppa - 20s duration, 40s CD.
at 80sec, each team get same total duration - 40sec.
order need to apply 4 times. destro 2 times.
it seems balanced but destro don't worry about 1 or 2 missed GCD.
there are plenty of time remained to complete a rotation and 2nd rotation. it helps burst.
if order miss 1 or 2 GCD, half of benefit is lost. waiting next apply from other player.
when other pressing matters came you lost track, suddenly it apply and miss half duration again.
in perfect coordination, you get the same effect. listening, waiting, watching, focusing. vs relaxing
maybe dispell was counter design.
now dispell is FIFO. you don't worry about it dispelled right away.
dispell counter play is not effective as before.
and destro can fill downtime with BO. 2nd CD decrease if he build for it.

CD increase debuff
Slayer and Squig
melee pbaoe vs jump frontal
let's forget everything and just focus on applying debuff. how many enemies and to whom.
let's say enemy backline healer blob is target.
slayer need guard, snare immune up, heal, managing enrage. can't do it alone. if guard tank got cc...
squig can do it alone, supports will increase chances greatly.
if healers see slayers/squigs coming. who have more reaction time to spread ?

Morale Pump
passive pumps. got nerfs but still there. no matter the ICD or tactic price.
see it as efforts level.
order have counters but how much efforts do they need to counter passive ?

Morale Drain
SW - Vengeful + Barrage. 5s CD inside 10s duration 30s CD
Mara - Wave of Terror. insta 10s CD
probably SW is one of counter against destro passive pumps.
with SM WW support it increases effect.
also need AP support in case destro counter with AP drain.
again, see the effort level.
perfect timing coordination vs 1 click.

AoE Snare
BG frontal aoe.
front line tank 1 click. effortless.
order need cleanse counter which is not effective cuz FIFO.
and 24 aoe vs grp cleans.
it's easy initiative with no real counter.

CC
zealot, choppa and mara
wind, gtdc, mara pull, aoe stun.
again, see what it achieve when it's done right, with how much input.
you can do it alone. extra help is not mandatory. it'll increase chances.

Sum
ppl are dumb but not that dumb.
by experience they learned what's easy, who got initiative.
order need flawless play plus help from others to get same result of normal destro player.

maybe in the top tier coordinated play, it's balanced. it may depend on indivisual player skills.
on average player level, it's not.
extra efforts means disadvantage at same efforts.

Side
it was small unbalance at first.
first victim was order healers. they faced constant harassment. from enemies, from inside flames.
all the above unbalances were aimed at healers.
they quit healing.
without heals, rest crumbled.
see how easy destro healers safely heal behind meat walls.
it adds up easy playing.
too many solo rdps is side effect from this.
there are other opinions that destro look cooler etc, which i disagree.
thx for reading.
anyway, it's personal analysis.
you can disagree and show me what's easy on order.
enlighten me.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:30 pm
by wachlarz
hard weekend for orda i see.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:45 pm
by badoglio
pat pat

i would join as more sws bws engis like in fort 8-)

and bw all bomb spec
so i can finish my weapons on both tons faster

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:58 pm
by Mergrim
1.CD decrase- order have much better synergy vs destro with cd decrase.
2. rampage>shatter limb hit 30feet all around easy win vs squig 40feet front.
3. Moral pump better on destro, AM have moral pump without cd.
4. There is no marauder exist that have wave of terror....easy win by SW with whispering wind its so broken.
5. Nothing to say here, there is a lot aoe snare in game. Aoe snare choppa/slayer, broken m2 from squig/sw that slow everything by 60%, am/shammy snare etc.
6. Wind of insanity is good, squig punt without immunity to, gtdc is free immune, wl also have pull.

You have many 1-2 button class on both side. WL spam 2 button on city same like mara. SW barrage and BA spam etc.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:07 pm
by CountTalabecland
The reason is the same as always for Order Pugs sucking.

There are wayyyyy too many ST RDPS solo idiots who are playing poorly to begin with and then they and have 0 “synergy” because their class/build is meant purely for pew pew

Not enough tanks, healers, or MDPS. The only time pug Order is dangerous is when you are playing pug destro with too few healers and there are a bunch of Slayer or WLs on the other team.

GTDC eats pug solo RDPS for breakfast.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:18 pm
by teiloh
Mergrim wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:58 pm 1.CD decrase- order have much better synergy vs destro with cd decrase.
2. rampage>shatter limb hit 30feet all around easy win vs squig 40feet front.
3. Moral pump better on destro, AM have moral pump without cd.
4. There is no marauder exist that have wave of terror....easy win by SW with whispering wind its so broken.
5. Nothing to say here, there is a lot aoe snare in game. Aoe snare choppa/slayer, broken m2 from squig/sw that slow everything by 60%, am/shammy snare etc.
6. Wind of insanity is good, squig punt without immunity to, gtdc is free immune, wl also have pull.

You have many 1-2 button class on both side. WL spam 2 button on city same like mara. SW barrage and BA spam etc.
1. Not really. ID, BA, Lion's Fury are rare exceptions but no one WW spams ID for a reason and BA/Lion's Fury only come into play in small scale for single target spec ASW/WL trains, in which case SM CD reducer is not going to suffer the same issues.
2. By definition you are already waiting 5s on top of whatever time it takes you to close, meaning the SH will have it up half a year before you do and on better/more targets
3. Meaningless, no enemy is going to let an AM sit still and pump for 30+ seconds. Only maybe decent for pumping up one key morale if your opponent is not actively attacking you, aka almost never works
5. The BG version is far better than its counterpart
6. WL pull is mostly unusable because its dependent on a pet that is tied to a pet WL dps, and it dies/is cced easily.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:33 pm
by Mergrim
teiloh wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:18 pm
Mergrim wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:58 pm 1.CD decrase- order have much better synergy vs destro with cd decrase.
2. rampage>shatter limb hit 30feet all around easy win vs squig 40feet front.
3. Moral pump better on destro, AM have moral pump without cd.
4. There is no marauder exist that have wave of terror....easy win by SW with whispering wind its so broken.
5. Nothing to say here, there is a lot aoe snare in game. Aoe snare choppa/slayer, broken m2 from squig/sw that slow everything by 60%, am/shammy snare etc.
6. Wind of insanity is good, squig punt without immunity to, gtdc is free immune, wl also have pull.

You have many 1-2 button class on both side. WL spam 2 button on city same like mara. SW barrage and BA spam etc.
1. Not really. ID, BA, Lion's Fury are rare exceptions but no one WW spams ID for a reason and BA/Lion's Fury only come into play in small scale for single target spec ASW/WL trains, in which case SM CD reducer is not going to suffer the same issues.
2. By definition you are already waiting 5s on top of whatever time it takes you to close, meaning the SH will have it up half a year before you do and on better/more targets
3. Meaningless, no enemy is going to let an AM sit still and pump for 30+ seconds. Only maybe decent for pumping up one key morale if your opponent is not actively attacking you, aka almost never works
5. The BG version is far better than its counterpart
6. WL pull is mostly unusable because its dependent on a pet that is tied to a pet WL dps, and it dies/is cced easily.
1. Everyone spam barrage. Imagine sw play without aoe BA tactic and put extra 15% dmg in 45feet. SW is just to broken with whispering wind, brutal assault/barrage spam, you can make faster bomb close range spam to. How many good slayer you see? to spam ID you need switch target each time you use it:P
2. For me slayer shatter limb is better, 30feet around>40feet front.
3. Not many good heal am around, this morale boost can be really good in small scale.
4. No replay?.
5. Don't see any problem here, snb IB>snb BG. If you play aoe root on 2h bg then no comment.
6. WL pull>mara pull, you can't run vs this pull. Both almost no use in city.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:31 pm
by teiloh
1. Barrage DPS is not exceptional. You can get 600-700 morale drain in 10s every 25s if time it perfectly and all hits land. Destro morale builders will get thousands in that time.
2. It's not. You can aim 40 feet to optimizing and Slayer doesn't even have 10% of the SH's mobility tools and survivability.
3. It's only situationally OK. Shaman version is better, full stop.
4. Spec WOT then. If SW is "so broken" with a 600-700 drain every 25s, then Mara with 225 every 5 seconds with Destro perma CD reducer is even more broken.
5. Almost every BG has Wave of Scorn.
6. No. You absolutely can run faster than a pet, it will literally never reach you unless it has Charge/Speed training.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:51 pm
by Mergrim
teiloh wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:31 pm 1. Barrage DPS is not exceptional. You can get 600-700 morale drain in 10s every 25s if time it perfectly and all hits land. Destro morale builders will get thousands in that time.
2. It's not. You can aim 40 feet to optimizing and Slayer doesn't even have 10% of the SH's mobility tools and survivability.
3. It's only situationally OK. Shaman version is better, full stop.
4. Spec WOT then. If SW is "so broken" with a 600-700 drain every 25s, then Mara with 225 every 5 seconds with Destro perma CD reducer is even more broken.
5. Almost every BG has Wave of Scorn.
6. No. You absolutely can run faster than a pet, it will literally never reach you unless it has Charge/Speed training.
1. 10sec VoN 10sec WW why 600-700? 700-900 if you use your action point smart. Have you played vs Lemonshope(not sure about name) or with him? 1 sw in city and his drain morale are really annoying.
Once time been in Rolgrom city wb with 5sw, destro don't have morale bomb at all and it was vs full 24man.
2. I know now Sh is broken but still shatter limb is better.
3. Shammy have many other tactic better so no use at all.
4.If you spec WoT you don't have wrecking ball, like i write before mara not use this skil at all. Mutated aggresor, 50% crit dmg, wrecking ball is must have for aoe mara.
5.IB bring more to pt. I know there is some meme Gravord build...like 2h without heal debuff etc but be serious.
6. Seen many wl around charge/speed training...pet immune to knock>pull>knock>dead.

Re: Analyzing Order

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:20 pm
by puzzolamistica
u dont need to be a genius to understand that order is the handicapped faction.
But the majority of peoples prefer to ignore this problem and reroll destro, like evryone did on live server untill he died :D.
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