The elephant in the room

[detrap]

So you guys won that city still without having a better warband comp? /confused

Imagine having better coordination is more important than having perfect class setup.

The point of the post is it's a lot easier doing damage mitigation for the warband by stacking black orcs than it is stacking any other order tank due to M4 being used every minute.

[M0rw47h]

So you guys won that city still without having a better warband comp? /confused

Imagine having better coordination is more important than having perfect class setup.

The point of the post is it's a lot easier doing damage mitigation for the warband by stacking black orcs than it is stacking any other order tank due to M4 being used every minute.

You should be rotating DBs in City Siege, as you can achieve 100% uptime of -50% dmg, thats one thing.
You usualy stack Blacks Orcs rather for M3 "mirror" of Knights "No Escape" for more pressure rather than extra damage reduction.

[Greenbeast]

So you guys won that city still without having a better warband comp? /confused

In 90% of the cities I play it's not a warband comp that is important but the execution and understanding of what do you want to achive with your warband comp. Look the TUP vs NGE/LOB. What warband had better comp? 2 AM, WH, Engi or destro melee train? But they have even kills and neither side could wiped another one.
Maybe after all this is not about comp but about people playing their roles.
The city score after stage III was 289 vs 370 and before stage III it was more or less even. Our enemies made a mistake in the last stage that costed them 12 man wipe and 1 champion after what they never fully recovered and we won pve at the end.

You only had 2 black orcs in that fight, we know for a fact destro dps get better heals when a BO is guarding them so maybe you needed a couple more there. The point of the post is that having 4 or more black orcs in a city means constant m4 rotations via the self morale pump as well as morale pump from shamans. The ability to have a tank m4 ready every 40 seconds is a big issue.

Black orc has no impact on healing.
We had 4 blacks orcs, 3 chosen, 1 black guard.
Nobody on destro use black orcs to rotate M4.
Their either use M2 bellow or use M3 to morale bomb to compensate lack of damage.
This ability is not an issue because order has access to morale drains and higher damage pressure at 15-20 seconds.
To the time black orc reach M3 everybody on the order side must have M2 which means every WP has siphon and every tank has bellow.

The issue you had is not M4 on enemy tanks but your own tanks, white lions and Rsw that didn't drain or interrupt anything when your warband needed it.
Imagine playing with 4 sword masters that can use aoe interrupt on 4 dps enemy that use 3 sec channeling at the same time while enemy warband has no knock down.

[Opethian]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

[Sundowner]

someone bring morale drain here plz.

Isn't solar flare order's only unique morale drain?

No.
Solar flare drains all the morale (9 targets) => targets go from full morale 4 to cero morale....
but order hava access to other morale drain abilities that drain less but are more "spammable"

Which ones that destro doesn't have?

[M0rw47h]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

Imagine pumping Solar Flare on Knights
Also, as said before, unless you fight zergs (fort pushes etc), Distracting Bellows is more efficient than ID as one tank can cover entire melee train.

[detrap]

In 90% of the cities I play it's not a warband comp that is important but the execution and understanding of what do you want to achive with your warband comp. Look the TUP vs NGE/LOB. What warband had better comp? 2 AM, WH, Engi or destro melee train? But they have even kills and neither side could wiped another one.
Maybe after all this is not about comp but about people playing their roles.
The city score after stage III was 289 vs 370 and before stage III it was more or less even. Our enemies made a mistake in the last stage that costed them 12 man wipe and 1 champion after what they never fully recovered and we won pve at the end.

You only had 2 black orcs in that fight, we know for a fact destro dps get better heals when a BO is guarding them so maybe you needed a couple more there. The point of the post is that having 4 or more black orcs in a city means constant m4 rotations via the self morale pump as well as morale pump from shamans. The ability to have a tank m4 ready every 40 seconds is a big issue.

Black orc has no impact on healing.
We had 4 blacks orcs, 3 chosen, 1 black guard.
Nobody on destro use black orcs to rotate M4.
Their either use M2 bellow or use M3 to morale bomb to compensate lack of damage.
This ability is not an issue because order has access to morale drains and higher damage pressure at 15-20 seconds.
To the time black orc reach M3 everybody on the order side must have M2 which means every WP has siphon and every tank has bellow.

The issue you had is not M4 on enemy tanks but your own tanks, white lions and Rsw that didn't drain or interrupt anything when your warband needed it.
Imagine playing with 4 sword masters that can use aoe interrupt on 4 dps enemy that use 3 sec channeling at the same time while enemy warband has no knock down.

Bashgutz and Thikboi were the only BO's i saw, sorry i was referring to that twitch vid. Black orcs have everything to do with healing outside of rampage because of their block channel which is also their morale pump. Healers don't need to focus heal tanks as much when they are avoiding a lot of the damage. I've been in cities against black orc's in every party and its been constant morale 4's. Black orc's reaching morales much earlier than order tanks and healers as you state is obviously an issue.

Barrage spam from SW needs Winds from the SM and a lot of coordination to effectively morale drain, unfortunately for SM's its a lot harder to proc cooldown reduction than it is for BO's, where for the SM it actually requires skill. AoE interrupts are on a base 10 second cooldown and only 15 feet. So we have 4 sm's, 4 wl, 4 sw, to help somewhat effective interrupts and morale drain, then where do we fit in enough slayers bw and engie and wh? The amount of coordination required is absurd to make it work compare to destro.

[Greenbeast]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction every for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

It is fine because the game is not mirrored and order has different tool to win, especially early game.
For example aoe interrupt on a tank, ap pump on tanks, outgoing healdebuff on tanks(hello ST group), unbreakable root on m3 on tank, aoe armor debuff on mdps that has a morale drain, aoe morale drain on range dps, a melee dps that can ignore enemy avoidance while doing very high damage, 15% damage buff on a single target on a rdps at demand, high mobile class that ignores 50%+ armor(bai healers), stackable heal buffs through kotbs, wp and rp, stackable and fairly fast accessible armor debuffs on different classes. And a lot more situational tools that can be used in cities especially in the last stage.

It works offcourse only give the fact that tanks with shield aren't perceived as guard bots thats role is to shadow the dps, dps aren't there to press 1 button when warband leader calls for it and healers need do more than press a detaunt and cast aoe group heals.

[detrap]

Imagine having better coordination is more important than having perfect class setup.

The point of the post is it's a lot easier doing damage mitigation for the warband by stacking black orcs than it is stacking any other order tank due to M4 being used every minute.

You should be rotating DBs in City Siege, as you can achieve 100% uptime of -50% dmg, thats one thing.
You usualy stack Blacks Orcs rather for M3 "mirror" of Knights "No Escape" for more pressure rather than extra damage reduction.

Yes we rotate DB's, however -75% damage mitigation from M4's every minute is obviously superior. Black Orc's use M3 occasionally yes, knights can't as often because they don't even have m2 by the time a BO would have m3

[detrap]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction every for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

It is fine because the game is not mirrored and order has different tool to win, especially early game.
For example aoe interrupt on a tank, ap pump on tanks, outgoing healdebuff on tanks(hello ST group), unbreakable root on m3 on tank, aoe armor debuff on mdps that has a morale drain, aoe morale drain on range dps, a melee dps that can ignore enemy avoidance while doing very high damage, 15% damage buff on a single target on a rdps at demand, high mobile class that ignores 50%+ armor(bai healers), stackable heal buffs through kotbs, wp and rp, stackable and fairly fast accessible armor debuffs on different classes. And a lot more situational tools that can be used in cities especially in the last stage.

It works offcourse only give the fact that tanks with shield aren't perceived as guard bots thats role is to shadow the dps, dps aren't there to press 1 button when warband leader calls for it and healers need do more than press a detaunt and cast aoe group heals.

If you are referring to the morale root on the knight, it is breakable, that was changed long time ago. Outgoing heal debuff aura is only most useful when healers are stacked, which is rare against good warbands.