Order is the new chaos?

[teiloh]

was more a comparison to other dps classes which have a heal debuff and thus are more of a threat... you know from playing healer how hard it is keep something alive that is debuffed, compared to just bursting with damage alone and it isnt even raw damage like a bw/sl or choppa...

I joke that even BW has a heal debuff which it does, and msh does not yet somehow order affraid of it when there are way bigger fish... if i was against my own allies i would all prefer tion/leaky/erre/matt/bash all as MSH over RSH... so that is why i do not see MSH as a big deal as some people make it out to be.

I think its more to do with destro have been dealing with gap closers (white lion) for years... sm WOH, ASW teleport etc and order not as use to dealing with counter gap closers, that is the only reason i can think why order have this phobia of msh

Gotcha. The thing is MSH fit their niche well and have good synergy with other classes, in a warband setting they will have others taking care of the heal debuffs. As far as dealing with RSH goes yes, in a smaller group situation they've always been a nightmare (saying this as an old SH player).

From what I've seen most MSH get way too close to the frontlines, not fully capitalizing on 30 ft BB range, and don't time/use their mobility tools well enough to optimize but of course that's just my personal observations. If the average MSH was less lax with positioning their numbers/survivability would go up a bit. They definitely bring something unique to the table for an MDPS. To be frank I'm not really fond of the reworks of either ASW or MSH from live. The latter has way too many abilities crammed into a single line designed to make it into a full-fledged MDPS, while locking it out of the rest of the class.

As far as gap closers go, Shaman and SH have always had mobility tools that are essentially gap closers (even if they aren't a leap). Destro does have like 4 or 5 (1 of which is rarely used) more speed buffs than Order (used to be more), as well as actually viable pulls (Engi had a delay for the longest time, and originally it was keyed off of Int and thus got disrupted 50-70% of the time) so if anything I'm sure long-time Order players know how to kite and dodge LOS better than anyone else. Not to mention that Covenant of Celerity means that if you don't flee, you will always get caught by any Destro class spamming abilities from any range. For the average AM RvR is survival horror where you have to be 80+ feet away from all Marauders or expect to get pulled and die every 30 seconds. It's not like even old pounce where you can simply run backwards and the WL will never catch you until he's so deep in your backline that your group can turn and insta kill him. A Mara with charge and pull up basically has a huge kill radius on anything that's not in heavy armor and without a pull immunity.

[Sulorie]

@Wam: Your TLDR are about half as long as the normal statement, I doubt many will read it
Especially those, who would need to read it. On the other hand, I doubt many of the complainers are looking for help at all, it's more about showing bias to either side and making excuses.
I read it and I agree.

[dirnsterer]

I appreciate the effort for trying to improve things though, we swap back and forth to try mix things up and find good action, if there was more guilds or warbands like cntk and vii in orvr that would be great... if there was 5 guilds either side like this active in large scale it would remind me of KN and id be more happy and less concerned about the state of orvr from large scale point of view.

This is never going to happen anymore. Requires effort to make a good core group and build around it a warband. Plus lot of lacking leadership too. Why would anyone start this type of projects when if they are any good, can just join already established decent wb guild? This will most likely spiral into people making smaller guilds and what will happen is what happened on live, there will be couple warband guilds that casually run wb's, then theres the zerg and then most people are small scale roamers that just run groups all over the lakes.

never said its easy, i know the logistical issues very well and the fact people can get rewarded more for doing less if you play the game and play the system... its alot less headache. It's not too far fetched though, just requires a different mindset for fighting which is sadly lacking. You can see when people care more about siege/funnel/ram instead of fights and kills in pvp. People don't want to test themselves, looking for path of least resistance and gravy train to ride.

That lame ass funnel and siege mentality has always been there though, as you fondly remember those dozen of wb times of KN, I do too remember them but not as selectively. I do remember Crimson sitting in Caledor keep in funnel position when destro had 400 aao in the zone with nothing happening outside of the keep and all the action being in completely different zone. No idea why but they were notorious of just holing themselves up in the most funnelable positions ever and that presentation in my mind just took the cake.

And it is not far fetched but it requires something more than fighting mentality, it requires leadership and proper good core setup, that is tough as hell to comeby in general especially when turning it into a wb scale when you have so many good options already to go into if you are decent player. Sure it is no excuse but there just are not people up for it so this is what people will have and it will just turn into smallscale hero roaming.

[Sulorie]

For the average AM RvR is survival horror where you have to be 80+ feet away from all Marauders or expect to get pulled and die every 30 seconds. It's not like even old pounce where you can simply run backwards and the WL will never catch you until he's so deep in your backline that your group can turn and insta kill him. A Mara with charge and pull up basically has a huge kill radius on anything that's not in heavy armor and without a pull immunity.

When the AM is being pulled, hit M2, while tank swaps guard. This shouldn't result in an insta kill at all. Why I have the impression, that every encounter described as being too strong or in favor of destro, is one order vs multiple destro. That other dude, who claims to be jumped by 2 mSH, who deleted him instantly, is among those lines.

[teiloh]

When the AM is being pulled, hit M2, while tank swaps guard. This shouldn't result in an insta kill at all. Why I have the impression, that every encounter described as being too strong or in favor of destro, is one order vs multiple destro. That other dude, who claims to be jumped by 2 mSH, who deleted him instantly, is among those lines.

Assuming M2 is up and that the guard doesn't get punted away before you get dogpiled by the entire enemy scenario/warband. Most good Order Healers/Ranged will never let Destro melee come within 80 feet for a reason.

[Draugris]

So what does the OP wants to say?

i mean everybody and his mother knows that order has a tendency toward ranged dps and destro towards melee, that´s old news. So why that may be, I play both sides and have ranged and melee classes. For me, Tanks on order side do not appeal to me visually, that´s why I don´t play one and I do not play classes that are not fun for me.

The thing I have come to understand over the years, is that no matter what incentive the devs put on something the player base will just abuse.
We saw it with the 20rp tics on Battleobjectives years ago, we saw it when Devs added royal and invader shards and with royals for defending forts to prevent throwing.

Congratulation to that insight, you call it abuse, but what people are doing is figuring out the most effective way to achieve things and this is not unique to RoR, this is the case in all mmorpgs, be they pve or be they pvp. If we talk about classes it´s called META, you might have heard of that. If we talk about mechanics, of course it´s the developers job to define what's intended and what's unintended and of course they define what the meta is and what´s not. They have the data on what representation each class has and if classes are under represented for a realm, well, I bet there is a reason for that.

[Sundowner]

Order bad, balance good, l2p

[emiliorv]

The number of newcomers and first posters calling for nerfs in "balance threads" is outstanding.

[Gurf]

The issue can be resolved by better Xrealming from the more experienced guilds. You have WAM in here telling people what to do when his guild plays on the over populated side consistently instead of the under populated one. Not that I think TUP are half as influential as some people think but at least the leaders like Gitbane and Lutz are doing xrealming the correct way and moving away from the side constantly zerging, others could follow their example (not FMJ though, they should stay Destro)

Too many people want the easy option, for example why don't many of the good Destro 6 mans move to Order to get constant scenario pops? Because they know it will be hard as they have to play other good 6 mans more often than random pugs, they want the easier option.

[Wam]

So what does the OP wants to say?

i mean everybody and his mother knows that order has a tendency toward ranged dps and destro towards melee, that´s old news. So why that may be, I play both sides and have ranged and melee classes. For me, Tanks on order side do not appeal to me visually, that´s why I don´t play one and I do not play classes that are not fun for me.

The thing I have come to understand over the years, is that no matter what incentive the devs put on something the player base will just abuse.
We saw it with the 20rp tics on Battleobjectives years ago, we saw it when Devs added royal and invader shards and with royals for defending forts to prevent throwing.

Congratulation to that insight, you call it abuse, but what people are doing is figuring out the most effective way to achieve things and this is not unique to RoR, this is the case in all mmorpgs, be they pve or be they pvp. If we talk about classes it´s called META, you might have heard of that. If we talk about mechanics, of course it´s the developers job to define what's intended and what's unintended and of course they define what the meta is and what´s not. They have the data on what representation each class has and if classes are under represented for a realm, well, I bet there is a reason for that.

also why something is over represented ...

Maximum range, decent aoe, and self healing, the healing keg is main reason why engi is over represented ... it means they dont need to rely on other parts of the holy trinty in fights where they can stay safe at range i.e keep fights/funnels

SW, alot of people hated on changes and i can understand why but it got more aoe pressure and LOTR people being fanboi's make this class very well represented

BW... being the strongest raw damage dealer makes this represented but not as much as it should be... ENGI BW AND SW are in wrong pecking order... should be BW > SW > Engi ... its strongest dmg dealer but needs support to work properly so order players tend to stick with engi for solo self reliance.

the more rdps the less tank/healer and mdps so becomes two fold