A dps shaman post

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Detangler
Posts: 384

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#21 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:09 pm
Another hundred posts of people arguing about White Lion isn't changing anyones opinions on the topic. It's a dead topic filled with issues we're very familiar with already. Any change, or lack of change, is hardly reflective of increasingly hostile threads on the subject. Rather those changes or lack of changes are based more around internal discussion. Public pressure for change is a terrible method to enable balance changes. Instead, we much more frequently use well crafted suggestions in the balance forum rather than digging through 100 posts of increasingly hostile arguments on the forums. It is very clear there are people whose opinion on the class will not change until it is gutted, which isn't an option. We've gone through that cycle in the past, and the class was largely useless because of it. Any minor changes will show up in the patch notes, it's not a topic we're unfamiliar with.

If threads get out of control, they'll be locked or moved to archive. The fact that you've been warned over behavior in the last thread means you should probably avoid the exact same behavior in the future, or you will accumulate warnings and eventually be removed from the forums. The fact that you were warned does not exclude whether OTHER people have been warned. Naturally, these warnings are private for each player. They're not intended to be a red letter they have to wear anytime they post in the eyes of the rest of the community. That's why you can't see other peoples warnings.
That was uncharacteristically long and civil post from you. Are you feeling OK, man? :lol: :lol:
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thedonkeykong332
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Posts: 170

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#22 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:13 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:09 pm
Another hundred posts of people arguing about White Lion isn't changing anyones opinions on the topic. It's a dead topic filled with issues we're very familiar with already. Any change, or lack of change, is hardly reflective of increasingly hostile threads on the subject. Rather those changes or lack of changes are based more around internal discussion. Public pressure for change is a terrible method to enable balance changes. Instead, we much more frequently use well crafted suggestions in the balance forum rather than digging through 100 posts of increasingly hostile arguments on the forums. It is very clear there are people whose opinion on the class will not change until it is gutted, which isn't an option. We've gone through that cycle in the past, and the class was largely useless because of it. Any minor changes will show up in the patch notes, it's not a topic we're unfamiliar with.

If threads get out of control, they'll be locked or moved to archive. The fact that you've been warned over behavior in the last thread means you should probably avoid the exact same behavior in the future, or you will accumulate warnings and eventually be removed from the forums. The fact that you were warned does not exclude whether OTHER people have been warned. Naturally, these warnings are private for each player. They're not intended to be a red letter they have to wear anytime they post in the eyes of the rest of the community. That's why you can't see other peoples warnings.
You know if you don't want to deal with this certain threads about WLS, you can make a post by yourself and put all wl discussion there and tell people to be civil since you're the authority here.
if no changes go whether its me or not, people will complain, the reason why you have bashing and toxic trolling behaviour as I recall you really liked to troll in a sarcastic way to the other folks, Don't be surprised where it comes from. When someone sees such behaviour from the head admin it immediately discourages him from doing anything, just because you ror team made this server happen doesn't mean it's okay to be abusive towards people.

My solution fixes your entire issue, and then you don't need to warn me for defending myself against toxic & bashing behaviour which you sir actually encouraged. so good luck with that.

You literally gave me a warning for this viewtopic.php?f=8&p=424441#p424441
saying the word: Sh1*T in correlation to toxic I haven't offended anyone, said it in a completely general way, and sh1t is really a fine word I don't know what you tried to do, but fix yourself and you will see how the toxic behaviour here will stop as well.

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Shalktonin
Posts: 196

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#23 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:30 pm

just a word to the wise there are some people who as their tone of conversation gets more and more polite and civil are getting closer and closer to simply removing your head from your shoulders and using it for a soccer ball...

I believe this is the phenomenon we are currently witnessing.
Scientia potentia est, tene hanc bene
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Grimfang
Posts: 70

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#24 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:10 am

Thereporter said I couldn’t talk about shaman in his wl thread and I should make my own topic. It was just a dig at him dictating who and what was allowed to be posted on a public forum. Personally I think this itself is trolling behaviour as he has no position of authority.

Obviously I don’t think a game should be balanced around 1v1. Whether that’s dps healers kiting and killing every other class but 1 or antikiter burst mdps who kill glass cannon dps healers.

Sulorie
Posts: 4799

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#25 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:46 am

You can always quit soloing on your solo roam char, if you die to certain classes, and start a duo or anything bigger.
Thank god you don't have to keep playing alone and die in unfair fights. :^)
Dying is no option.

Grimfang
Posts: 70

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#26 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:06 am

Sulorie wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:46 am
You can always quit soloing on your solo roam char, if you die to certain classes, and start a duo or anything bigger.
Thank god you don't have to keep playing alone and die in unfair fights. :^)
You could even, and I know Shaman and AM think this is illegal, spec defensive and heal. Sure play the way you want but dont then complain that you didnt make the choice to be a glass cannon that dies alot.

ActAppalled
Posts: 8

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#27 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am

thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:48 pm
"Because most wl's go pet less aoe"
Well there you go, you have a choice either go pet or go pet less, why you need the root? you want to catch people good. be with the pet, you want to be aoe and WB play? Good no pet, now you can decide! you gain something give up something else, you know the word *balance* right?
So no need to be a snowflake when I just want to have a balance.

It's not really a meaningful choice at all, the pet gets instantly melted from the AoE in city and WBs. The AoE WL spec does decent damage but loses all utility and burst, the big single target WL burst comes from co-ordinated strike (which you lose with no pet in AOE) and either the 50% hp Execute (which you lose in AOE spec if you want the AOE interrupt which is the only utility you have in AOE spec) or the Pet enrage Leonine Frenzy (which you can't get in AOE spec). So in AoE spec you don't have a KD,silence, pull etc... you have zero single target burst and your ONLY utility is AoE interrupt (which is only 15feet around you). Giving all of that up and in any good guild/alliance WB the WL is still out DPSed by Slayers and BW on his team and Choppa/Mara/SH/Sorc on Destro, just look at any close fought established guild city screenshots, you won't often see the WL as the no.1 damage if those other classes are equally geared and it's a close fight.

The mobility WL / Order gets is an answer to the greenskin tactic "Run Away!", as a WL player I don't mind giving that up if Run Away also gets removed. If we just focus on nerfing WL than Shaman would be literally untouchable/unkillable (which is the reason why so many people kept bringing up the shaman thing in your WL topic), ranged SH will kite all day. Order doesn't have the equivelant and AM is literally a hinderance in anything bigger than 1v1 yet Destro still gets a highly mobile class in mSH (which unlike WL has all their tools from just speccing into one tree and have the choice of ST burst with pet/tactics or AoE pressure and utility that's better than WL with a change of tactics and no pet). For the Order squishies mSH is just as scary and don't you dare be within Choppa GTDC range as that is insta death too.

I think the problem is with a "grass is always greener" mentality, I have mained mSH and Magus on Destro and used to think the WL was OP too, even though I used to have a pretty good chance beating a WL on both those classes (I used to do a solo roaming defensive build on Magus). So when my friends stopped playing and I rolled a WL I was in for a shock let me tell you, it's still a mDPS, you still need a healer/guard to get things done against competent people (you still can't bring down a defensive specced healer in good gear that detaunts). Destro have the stronger melee ball, Destro have more tanks, I swear to you my WL experience has been more miserable than both mSH and Magus (both leveling and at endgame up to Vanq/invader gear). If you want good burst in WL you're building squishy too.
If you look at the melee DPS between the two factions Choppa/Slayer are arguably the closest (rampage vs GTDC both being very strong tools), then you have WL/aSW vs Mara/mSH, in a city and bigger scenarios destro has the clear AOE/Utility/tankyness advantage over the glass cannon WL/aSW and AOE/utility is all that matters in those situations. Sure ST target spec WL has slightly better burst than mSH focusing on ST with pet but not by much, the mSH wins in AOE pressure and utility if the classes go AOE for city/sc's.

You mention duels and again a WL has no chance against equally geared Destro tanks, as far as DPS goes the easiest kills are Sorcs (just like BW would be for any destro mDPS that has their root removal/immunity bound), Magus tend to build tanky rift build or if in good gear can win due to knockback/disarm/aegis ability. Mara can get pretty good Parry numbers and as long as they aren't super glass canon and survive the WL burst it's pretty even, same goes for WE (as long as they aren't built as glass canon in 1v1 roaming...). MSH is 50/50 I would say but usually they are in AOE spec not 1v1 spec, Choppa is usually a win for WL unless the choppa is in almost BIS gear (same goes for Slayers 1v1 vs destro DPS though). Doks usually either outlive the burst as healers and slowly walk back to their WB/Warcamp or kill you if DPS/Shield spec, you have no chance as WL there.
So in solo roaming as a WL all you have is Sorcs/Choppa and badly geared/specced Shamans/Zealots (any other mDPS kills these too maybe just slower than WL), I don't see that as OP at all, not to mention Mara/WE/Choppa can go a high parry or defensive or regen builds which the WL doesn't really have access too (if they wanted to just focus on roaming). Any experienced roamer out there will tell you WL is not at the top of the solo/roaming totem pole at all.

Lastly, you mentioned watching a WL streaming looking OP but keep in mind that particular WL is pretty much best in slot gear, most classes are OP in BiS gear and it's not something to gauge balance around until everyone is in BIS gear.

The m1 Root which you seem to have such a big issue with (as you are a shaman, it hardly affects any other class as they just remove it or use m2 in the case of healers) is getting nerfed down too.

I hope I've addressed most of your points, I would urge you to make a WL and see for yourself as your posts come off very Destro/Shaman biased.

Knowthyself
Posts: 82

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#28 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:14 am

sogeou wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:25 pm
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 pm

and on my respone to the shaman as I wrote, I have to choose what I want to do while WLS don't need to choose anything, they can do everything in any spec. and Yeah they can do great damage on solo targets as well in aoe spec.
Same is true for the WL, you don't even understand it. WL's AOE spec is nothing like the single target spec. Their AOE is SW level without being spec'ed for AoE. So, there is your problem thinking they have everything when in fact they don't. If you die to an AoE WL, I don't know what to say to you.

I love the SW class / SH class because of all the tools they have. Both of those classes have more tools and great burst and good mobility. You just don't have issues with them because you don't die to them.
SW/SH has more tools than WL : Wrong - Great burst - beside being wrong it is hilarious. Wargrim made it clear that no one will touch your shiny easy-mode toy and it will be left as it is. So, you can relax and stop making ridiculous statements like (to give an example) : the one you have claimed you have tested WL and MSH burst and MSH was even better.. but somehow you couldn't share the combat log no matter how many times you have been asked for it. You can relax now since WL is obviously still Dev's spoiled child.
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Re: A dps shaman post

Post#29 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:57 pm

ActAppalled wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am
thedonkeykong332 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:48 pm
"Because most wl's go pet less aoe"
Well there you go, you have a choice either go pet or go pet less, why you need the root? you want to catch people good. be with the pet, you want to be aoe and WB play? Good no pet, now you can decide! you gain something give up something else, you know the word *balance* right?
So no need to be a snowflake when I just want to have a balance.

It's not really a meaningful choice at all, the pet gets instantly melted from the AoE in city and WBs. The AoE WL spec does decent damage but loses all utility and burst, the big single target WL burst comes from co-ordinated strike (which you lose with no pet in AOE) and either the 50% hp Execute (which you lose in AOE spec if you want the AOE interrupt which is the only utility you have in AOE spec) or the Pet enrage Leonine Frenzy (which you can't get in AOE spec). So in AoE spec you don't have a KD,silence, pull etc... you have zero single target burst and your ONLY utility is AoE interrupt (which is only 15feet around you). Giving all of that up and in any good guild/alliance WB the WL is still out DPSed by Slayers and BW on his team and Choppa/Mara/SH/Sorc on Destro, just look at any close fought established guild city screenshots, you won't often see the WL as the no.1 damage if those other classes are equally geared and it's a close fight.

The mobility WL / Order gets is an answer to the greenskin tactic "Run Away!", as a WL player I don't mind giving that up if Run Away also gets removed. If we just focus on nerfing WL than Shaman would be literally untouchable/unkillable (which is the reason why so many people kept bringing up the shaman thing in your WL topic), ranged SH will kite all day. Order doesn't have the equivelant and AM is literally a hinderance in anything bigger than 1v1 yet Destro still gets a highly mobile class in mSH (which unlike WL has all their tools from just speccing into one tree and have the choice of ST burst with pet/tactics or AoE pressure and utility that's better than WL with a change of tactics and no pet). For the Order squishies mSH is just as scary and don't you dare be within Choppa GTDC range as that is insta death too.

I think the problem is with a "grass is always greener" mentality, I have mained mSH and Magus on Destro and used to think the WL was OP too, even though I used to have a pretty good chance beating a WL on both those classes (I used to do a solo roaming defensive build on Magus). So when my friends stopped playing and I rolled a WL I was in for a shock let me tell you, it's still a mDPS, you still need a healer/guard to get things done against competent people (you still can't bring down a defensive specced healer in good gear that detaunts). Destro have the stronger melee ball, Destro have more tanks, I swear to you my WL experience has been more miserable than both mSH and Magus (both leveling and at endgame up to Vanq/invader gear). If you want good burst in WL you're building squishy too.
If you look at the melee DPS between the two factions Choppa/Slayer are arguably the closest (rampage vs GTDC both being very strong tools), then you have WL/aSW vs Mara/mSH, in a city and bigger scenarios destro has the clear AOE/Utility/tankyness advantage over the glass cannon WL/aSW and AOE/utility is all that matters in those situations. Sure ST target spec WL has slightly better burst than mSH focusing on ST with pet but not by much, the mSH wins in AOE pressure and utility if the classes go AOE for city/sc's.

You mention duels and again a WL has no chance against equally geared Destro tanks, as far as DPS goes the easiest kills are Sorcs (just like BW would be for any destro mDPS that has their root removal/immunity bound), Magus tend to build tanky rift build or if in good gear can win due to knockback/disarm/aegis ability. Mara can get pretty good Parry numbers and as long as they aren't super glass canon and survive the WL burst it's pretty even, same goes for WE (as long as they aren't built as glass canon in 1v1 roaming...). MSH is 50/50 I would say but usually they are in AOE spec not 1v1 spec, Choppa is usually a win for WL unless the choppa is in almost BIS gear (same goes for Slayers 1v1 vs destro DPS though). Doks usually either outlive the burst as healers and slowly walk back to their WB/Warcamp or kill you if DPS/Shield spec, you have no chance as WL there.
So in solo roaming as a WL all you have is Sorcs/Choppa and badly geared/specced Shamans/Zealots (any other mDPS kills these too maybe just slower than WL), I don't see that as OP at all, not to mention Mara/WE/Choppa can go a high parry or defensive or regen builds which the WL doesn't really have access too (if they wanted to just focus on roaming). Any experienced roamer out there will tell you WL is not at the top of the solo/roaming totem pole at all.

Lastly, you mentioned watching a WL streaming looking OP but keep in mind that particular WL is pretty much best in slot gear, most classes are OP in BiS gear and it's not something to gauge balance around until everyone is in BIS gear.

The m1 Root which you seem to have such a big issue with (as you are a shaman, it hardly affects any other class as they just remove it or use m2 in the case of healers) is getting nerfed down too.

I hope I've addressed most of your points, I would urge you to make a WL and see for yourself as your posts come off very Destro/Shaman biased.
MSH is no where near WL, don't even front. Anyone who has played both can tell you this. WE's however are a lot scarier than WH, esp 1v1. Choppas and slayers seem pretty even. Its hard to say if engies are better than magi, because engines are just more noticeable, like they make a lot of noice. BW has the armor buff that prevents mele train, but sorc has better city play imo. But WL is in a class of its own. Untouchable, literally every mechanic in the game imaginable he has, on top of descent armor , literally #1 dps. Playing WL is so easy, its no fun tbh.

sogeou
Posts: 193

Re: A dps shaman post

Post#30 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:19 pm

Knowthyself wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:14 am

SW/SH has more tools than WL : Wrong - Great burst - beside being wrong it is hilarious. Wargrim made it clear that no one will touch your shiny easy-mode toy and it will be left as it is. So, you can relax and stop making ridiculous statements like (to give an example) : the one you have claimed you have tested WL and MSH burst and MSH was even better.. but somehow you couldn't share the combat log no matter how many times you have been asked for it. You can relax now since WL is obviously still Dev's spoiled child.
Because you don't need Combat logs when I legit POSTED the damn recap. I don't think you understand dps test dude. You don't have both classes with the 10k kills on both. When running with 2 mSH we could fight and kill 2-3 times our number.

mSH have Disarm, KD, interrupt, Pet KD, Aoe Knockback, AoE Snare Self punt, ranged AoE snare, cooldown increase, larger self heal, ranged armor debuff, ranged snare, speed increase 30%, heal debuff. Can get in and out of squig armor via Kaboom kite, get back in SA for burst. Also apply AOE without having to spec for it. If a fight is zergy and you just need to sit back you can do that very easy from afar while everyone is doing the wave.

I have almost all classes and play both destro and order while most times when people cry about another class they only play one side 100%. Example, Shaman have it easy as there is only one class which can kill them where AM's has like 4-5 classes that are dangerous.

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