DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

[Ramasee]

Simple. If hybridization is what warrior priests and doks want even out of their right side trees. We don't need to do a whole bunch of anything to the class as it does an excellent job of being a lesser mdps while simultaneously being a lesser healer.

If wp and dok do want their middle and right trees to be more specialized, we would continue along the lines I posted hammering out as many details as we can before providing it as an actual proposal.

This thread serves as a "Is there a need in the eyes of the community" post.

[ravenlocke]

Simple. If hybridization is what warrior priests and doks want even out of their right side trees. We don't need to do a whole bunch of anything to the class as it does an excellent job of being a lesser mdps while simultaneously being a lesser healer.

If wp and dok do want their middle and right trees to be more specialized, we would continue along the lines I posted hammering out as many details as we can before providing it as an actual proposal.

This thread serves as a "Is there a need in the eyes of the community" post.

I am sorry but that is not an actionable problem statement. Your problem statement should look something like this:

Total throughput of a DOK/WP when specced into the X tree is Y dps and Z hps vs a standard (or desired) state of R dps and T hps.

That is an actionable problem statement following which constructive discussion can take place as to how to get to the desired state. If you dont have this information then you are not ready to have any balance discussions or even think about implementing changes.

Kright

[peterthepan3]

At this stage we honestly just want to know how the community envision the specs playing out. If an overwhelming majority want to maintain the hybrid nature, then that will of course influence any potential balancing decisions.

Are potential changes on the menu? Yes. Are they drastic overhauls? Hell no. Will we keep the community in the know? Yes. Will we use suggestions made by the community? Yes.

[Drozen]

Simple. If hybridization is what warrior priests and doks want even out of their right side trees. We don't need to do a whole bunch of anything to the class as it does an excellent job of being a lesser mdps while simultaneously being a lesser healer.

If wp and dok do want their middle and right trees to be more specialized, we would continue along the lines I posted hammering out as many details as we can before providing it as an actual proposal.

This thread serves as a "Is there a need in the eyes of the community" post.

I do apoligize if i might have missed post's of it here on the forums that the middle/right tree of DoK/Wp is broke and need fixin', the one thing i do have noticed is that the generall oppinion seem to be the dps aspect of the Wp is abit lack luster ( i do agree) compared to the DoK, but then again the healing of the Wp is abit stronger. this is what was intended from the start of having mirror classes not being exact mirrors, if you think that is right or wrong is whole diffrent thing. BUT having these changes done that you have proposed is kinda drastic, in my eyes we all play the game cuz we liked it from back live. basicly re-wamping DoK/Wp to what you have suggested may not be why we have played the class for years..with this said yea some tweaks here and there is fine, but making it with a sledge hammer then we will only have the WL "re-work" all over again.. the balance is already kinda funky in rvr as is. And also if i may add, even if the "pure" dps mode is implemented to DoK/Wp, they will still just be backline healers cuz who would take a ST dps into a wb?.. clearly not for WB's in mind. Why not try and make them more viable for meele heals in wb's instead?

[adamthelc]

I can never vote on these, but I would vote specialization. Seems like it would be easier to balance.

I understand the argument for keeping things the same and if you wanted that I think they are decently hybridized already.

Some more drastic ideas I though of, if you want to specialize. Dont take them too seriously.

Put SR/TE and maybe DA/RS in the melee heal tree. Alternatively make divine fury prevent you from using SR/TE and give DA/RS a long CD. If you want to go damage you should have a survivability CD, but you shouldn't be able to heal others.

To make up for the melee heal tree losing Divine Fury, you could compensate somehow with grace of sigmar and empowered transfer. One way would be to make it so the heals from melee heals can crit. Which would give the melee heal tree some other options with tactics.

I think in order to really do this you would need to do 2 things to the melee heal tree. Reduce its damage and increase it survivability. Maybe something like all of your damaging abilities do 50% less damage, but all damage you do is given to you as a stacking bubble.

If you dont do something drastic like specializing I dont think you should do much or anything. If you arent willing to give up anything you cant really expect to get anything.

Like the ideas that were posted for wrath and torture, but I think if they really want to be dps they need to give up the vast majority of their heals.

Could also consider bringing back divine strike and whatever the dok version was in some way.

[ravenlocke]

At this stage we honestly just want to know how the community envision the specs playing out. If an overwhelming majority want to maintain the hybrid nature, then that will of course influence any potential balancing decisions.

Are potential changes on the menu? Yes. Are they drastic overhauls? Hell no. Will we keep the community in the know? Yes. Will we use suggestions made by the community? Yes.

That is not how you successfully balance this game Peter. Mythic very clearly envisioned the classes functioning a certain way and the only way you can properly balance the classes in keeping with the original intentions of the game is by working with a problem statement similar to the one I laid out.

I dont understand how you plan to balance the game without this kind of structured thinking.

Its threads like this that concern me about the current state of RoR. It suggests that the team is shooting from the hip regarding what to do with classes in a 10 year old game. That is not the message you want to send to prospective players.


Kright

[peterthepan3]

And also if i may add, even if the "pure" dps mode is implemented to DoK/Wp, they will still just be backline healers cuz who would take a ST dps into a wb?.. clearly not for WB's in mind. Why not try and make them more viable for meele heals in wb's instead?

We are balancing the dps and melee heal specs primarily around 6-man play as the dok and wp already have a backline heal spec if they wish to play in warbands. It is our belief that not being able to use one spec for every scale is not an issue whatsoever: DPS Zealot/RP is a WB spec, and useless in 6-man; DPS AM/Shaman is a 6-man spec, and largely irrelevant in WB (DPS Shaman less so).

Balancing melee healers around 6-man play is already an arduous task as it is!

That is not how you successfully balance this game Peter. Mythic very clearly envisioned the classes functioning a certain way and the only way you can properly balance the classes in keeping with the original intentions of the game is by working with a problem statement similar to the one I laid out.

I dont understand how you plan to balance the game without this kind of structured thinking.

Its threads like this that concern me about the current state of RoR. It suggests that the team is shooting from the hip regarding what to do with classes in a 10 year old game. That is not the message you want to send to prospective players.


Kright

Your concerns are duly noted, but I must respectfully disagree. We are not 'shooting from the hip': we already have some ideas on the backburner that have partly been drawn from the previous .ab ex model, and partly drawn from proposals made a while ago. As said already, the purpose of this discussion is to ascertain whether or not the community would prefer that we take a hybrid approach, or purist approach, when talking about the specs of these two classes; class DNA is an important aspect for us to factor in.

Also, Mythic's envisioning of the 2h WP was anything but clear.

[adamthelc]

At this stage we honestly just want to know how the community envision the specs playing out. If an overwhelming majority want to maintain the hybrid nature, then that will of course influence any potential balancing decisions.

Are potential changes on the menu? Yes. Are they drastic overhauls? Hell no. Will we keep the community in the know? Yes. Will we use suggestions made by the community? Yes.

That is not how you successfully balance this game Peter. Mythic very clearly envisioned the classes functioning a certain way and the only way you can properly balance the classes in keeping with the original intentions of the game is by working with a problem statement similar to the one I laid out.

I dont understand how you plan to balance the game without this kind of structured thinking.

Its threads like this that concern me about the current state of RoR. It suggests that the team is shooting from the hip regarding what to do with classes in a 10 year old game. That is not the message you want to send to prospective players.


Kright

I am not going to contest what you said too much, because I liked the game they made. But not everything they envisioned turned out like they thought it would.

I am all for keeping the game the way that it was. But I am not going to act like it was perfect and improvements couldn't be made.

This is a digression so I am not going to go on much further. But just look at RP and Zealot. They designed it one way and that didnt really work out so they added the mechanic to switch stats.

The problem they faced is the problem any game including this one faces. Some people will he upset if you make changes and some people will be upset if you make no changes


Edit Also WP/DoKs didn't work as they planned right out of the gates. They saw them ALL as being melee healers. It was pretty early in the game when they saw that wasn't going to work for everyone and added resource gain to books and chalices.

[Ramasee]

Simple. If hybridization is what warrior priests and doks want even out of their right side trees. We don't need to do a whole bunch of anything to the class as it does an excellent job of being a lesser mdps while simultaneously being a lesser healer.

If wp and dok do want their middle and right trees to be more specialized, we would continue along the lines I posted hammering out as many details as we can before providing it as an actual proposal.

This thread serves as a "Is there a need in the eyes of the community" post.

I am sorry but that is not an actionable problem statement. Your problem statement should look something like this:

Total throughput of a DOK/WP when specced into the X tree is Y dps and Z hps vs a standard (or desired) state of R dps and T hps.

That is an actionable problem statement following which constructive discussion can take place as to how to get to the desired state. If you dont have this information then you are not ready to have any balance discussions or even think about implementing changes.

Kright

What classes do you play? Pm them to me. You sound like someone I'd love to stick on a think tank.

So when we get about to discussing a change to a class that's when we bring up target rotational dps numbers, hps numbers , total mitigations, burst windows, effects of ccs here ccs there. I posted a snippet of one of these conversations in the priorities list thread I believe. That's step 3. Sometimes ideas are shot down because there is no need before or after we get to that step. This is part of step 1, identify an issue.

Mythic define some class playstyles but they changed large amounts of the classes overtime. For instance at launch warrior priests and doks had zero mechanic generation of their offhand. You HAD to fight in melee. If we implemented that today, the community would slaughter us.

This thread is to gauge the idea the community thinks the direction of the class goes before we go through the massive amount of hours of discussion and math and propose something the community in general would be against. Based off the pole and comments thus far, that would be towards specialization within a tree. That's when we would come up with your actionable statement to give to the think tank, alongside some ideas to kick start their thinking.

[Mystry]

Specialization

A couple points but I won't be as long winded as I usually am about this:
1. MMOs almost exclusively tend to favor specialized classes. Any class that underperforms compared to another in whatever roll simply is not taken.
2. As it stands, Wrath is currently nearly useless compared to both Torture and 'pure' dps classes. Wrath in my mind SHOULD be a dedicated damage dealing tree. I'd even be in favor of removing Wrath's ability to heal altogether, but whether that happens or not, it needs SERIOUS buffs to even get it to Torture's level.
3. I do not believe in the whole "classes with the capability to heal/tank should do worse at DPS in their DPS specs than classes who don't have that option" nonsense. The entire point of specializing is to pick your playstyle. This is why I advocate completely removing any ability for Wrath to heal - so these types of people can stop spouting that excuse. There is no good reason that any tree should underperform compared to other trees in the same role, assuming that the tree does not cover a multi-functional role. As an example, I do NOT think that Grace should do the same amount of damage as a WL or Assault SW, because it's multifunctional with lifetap heals (nor should Grace equal Wrath in terms of pure damage if Wrath is ever given its fair due). I DO think that Wrath should be able to achieve some level of parity with pure DPS classes as its sole function is to deal damage (or should be, in my eyes). For that, I'm more than willing to give up any sort of healing ability for Wrath.

I said I wasn't going to be long winded and I did it anyway. God damnit.