[Shaman] You Really Got Nothin

[dshdf]

Hello everyone

1. Identify the issue.
Most of the Shaman specs suffer from current level of disrupt in the game, especially due to the hybrid class mechanic and/or DoT-dependent DPS. This is even more troublesome as shaman hasn't got any disrupt striketrough/counter tactics or abilities

2.Explain why it's an issue.
a. for healing sham with low/moderate amount of int class mechanic is barely usefull. There is no point to waste GCD on lifetap/lifesteal dot which will be disrupted in half of the cases.
b. hybrid/lifetap shaman builds are just too random. There is a very little sence to center your buld around lifetap spells which are often disrupted, unless you are running full int build. But in that case you are defenceless while casting your your 2 sec 100ft( 80ft for 13p Path of daGreen aoe) taps, expecially since significant amount of them will be disrupted.
c. Full dd shaman spec was hurt by DoT mechanic revamp. This spec DPS is quite low and very unstable.

3. Propose a viable solution to the problem.
From my point of view, stated problem could be solved by upgrading 7pt Path of Da Green tactic by 10% disrupt striketrough for all sham spells(or replacing it with).

[dansari]

Moving to discussions. Closed June 1. I'd like discussion to center specifically around the proposal at hand. I have a feeling there will be some suggestions that go beyond the tactic since both dps sham and dps AM are lackluster. If you have a suggestion, use your best judgement to determine whether it belongs here or in its own proposal. If you do like the proposal, ideally you should say things like, "I like this but we can do more through X, Y, and Z" and if it gets too off topic we can spoiler stuff. Happy balance forum-ing

[Foomy44]

(Edit: Forgot the dps AM tactic only works on that tree's abilities, regardless I think most of my post still applies)

Really don't like this solution. The AM equivalent is in the DPS tree, why should this go into the lifesteal tree? Would really screw over (what I consider to be) the normal dps build. Shaman dps is CRAP and the only way you are pulling decent numbers is with an elemental debuff on your enemy so taking both of them (5pts in heal tree, 5 pts in lifesteal tree) is very important IMO. Also dps shamy is insanely squishy and really needs sticky feetz as a kiting tool, putting this tactic that high into the lifesteal tree would make it impossible for them to take the basic kit of http://www.ror.builders/career/shaman/s ... mm=&mt=&t= which doesn't even include many of the tactics or healdebuff you might want spec'd for certain situations. I think you had lifesteal spec in mind when you proposed this but if it became the solution it would make dps shamy spec a whole lot more restrictive build-wise than AM one.

I know we aren't supposed to appeal to mirroring but AM has it way too easy when it comes to specing against disrupt, 1 baseline tactic and 1 tactic in the dps tree, isn't it a little obvious that the shammy disrupt strikethru tactic should at least be in the same tree as the AM one? If the fix was going to be something along these lines I'd much rather see disrupt strikethru attached to one of the 2 higher dps tree tactics (though the fix I'm really hoping for is a 15 pt ability that addresses this issue and is good enough to be worth dropping one of the other trees for and lifesteal specs getting a different solution). It's a tough problem to fix because now that lifesteals are basically normal int based magic attacks both dps spec and lifesteal spec are going to want access to the whatever the disrupt solution is, and AM is always gonna have a baseline tactic as a viable option that shammy doesn't.

Edit2: It's not like I'm against the change by itself, I'll take any disrupt strikethru I can get anywhere, but this is not a great fix and I imagine getting it would make it a lot less likely devs would give shammy disrupt strikethru in other places. If that's the case then I am 100% against it.

[Ramasee]

The core 10% strikethrough tactic of the AM is the high elf tactic. The 15% strikethough is the pure dps path and only works on that path's abilities.

My first thought when reading the proposal echos what foomy has written about location in paths and needed tools for shamans.

Shamans and AMs need a whole lot of love surrounding their mechanic, which I imagine is going to happen when client control happens. So what we do now will likely be a band-aid solution. Keeping that in mind, I had a hard time finding a base tactic to change for shaman since they mirror am on nearly everyone and the ones they do not mirror are used by quite a few shaman builds and situations.

So I can see why the OP is poking at Path of Da Green 7pt tactic. But then we come back to DPS shaman issues. So I'll throw up a handful of off the top of my head suggestions for shamans to think about.

1. Replace the racial tactic of whazat behind you with the 10% elven racial tactic. This does effect squig herders, which could be the main downfall of such a proposal.

2. Add this to the tactic Ere We Goes Again (3pt gork)You gain a 10% disrupt strikethrough on path of gork abilities for 10s whenever you use ere we go. (in addition to normal effect)

3. Replace 7pt tactic of path of gork with 10% strikethrough on all abilities.

[Arteker616]

Moving to discussions. Closed June 1. I'd like discussion to center specifically around the proposal at hand. I have a feeling there will be some suggestions that go beyond the tactic since both dps sham and dps AM are lackluster. If you have a suggestion, use your best judgement to determine whether it belongs here or in its own proposal. If you do like the proposal, ideally you should say things like, "I like this but we can do more through X, Y, and Z" and if it gets too off topic we can spoiler stuff. Happy balance forum-ing

First and foremost both classes as dps behave differently . op did a poor job explaining how shaman dps works . Wich is quite diffewrent from the case of am .
He has a point in the case shaman dps is having issues exacerbated by the problem of the disrupt changes , but so does the sorc the bw or the magus .
The main problem here is u cannot apply the same proposal guideline to shaman mirror the am because as dps both behave diferently.
the main Reason dps am is not anymore on that bad shape when it come to generate damage since the the disrupt changes . from all the caster rdps is the less affected by the changes basicly because how he can pile easily a -30 to disrupt thanks to gear and tactics while other classes strugle to even reach 10 or 12%.

Is true both lass lifetaps now kinda sucks and are mostly only useful for special momments like when u kite and u build 5 stacks then u can keep using it to hit a chasin enemy on the move .

But none either the dps am or shaman does use the taps for any kind of regular dmg rotation its lackluster because the poor dmg they deal compared with the shaman nukes or am.

Alot of problems come from people trying to find a hybrid build based on lifetaps, they want to try to lifetap and heal at same time but it died with the removal of ex mode. its basicly the same issue taps had earlier.

Edit: maybe would be a good idea to recover dacknalfrosch am / shaman dps post about rotations and dps. garanted its outdated since it was done before the detaunt changes to dots.

[Foomy44]

He has a point in the case shaman dps is having issues exacerbated by the problem of the disrupt changes , but so does the sorc the bw or the magus .

Just want to clarify that most casters have access to disrupt strike through tactics, undefendable attacks, or +160 int tactic, usually more than 1 of these. Shaman is the only caster in the game that doesn't have a single one of those and it makes a big difference, they really do need more help than the others atm IMO.

[dansari]

1. Replace the racial tactic of whazat behind you with the 10% elven racial tactic. This does effect squig herders, which could be the main downfall of such a proposal.

I think the main downfall of that proposal would be that every good shaman I know slots whazat behind you and even some herders will take it.

[Foomy44]

1. Replace the racial tactic of whazat behind you with the 10% elven racial tactic. This does effect squig herders, which could be the main downfall of such a proposal.

I think the main downfall of that proposal would be that every good shaman I know slots whazat behind you and even some herders will take it.

Agreed, that would be a big nerf to heal shamans out of nowhere. (and I do use it on my tank SH 90% of the time)

[adamthelc]

Since you brought up mechanic as why it's an issue I dont like it. I will agree the mechanic has problems, it always has imo.

Making a mandatory tactic to make a mechanic somewhat workable is flawed. You shouldn't have to lose a tactic slot to be able to use your mechanic. The mechanic should be reworked.

Now strictly looking at this from a high disrupt relief point of view, I think its reasonable to consider giving a shaman some disrupt strikethrough.

[Dabbart]

Note: I main AM and Sham, so my opinion is biased. I have also posted my own proposal for Life-Taps, and won’t repeat myself here

So. AM has a 10% strike through tactic. It’s Lifetap and hybrid build still suck. So I fail to see how you can logically say that adding this to sham will solve anything.

A sham with low int will receive low heals from all their lifetaps, regardless of disrupt rates. And even with 10% strike through, if you have less than 250int(full heal/survival gear), you will still be disrupted at a larger amount(avg “defensive” build runs upwards of 30% disrupt for any class, before tank Block or HtL). Run the Math. It’s not hard to figure out you need a bunch of Int before your lifetaps provide more than even DF nerfed heals would.

I fail to see how this would actually help the DPS sham outside of a few very particular builds. I ask the Op, what “builds” would you see using this? You mention all three, Healer, Hybrid, and DPS. So what actual specs/tactics do your foresee this being used with?

Besides the point, that between AM and Sham, both have powerful but unique tactics and abilities. Straight mirroring isn’t balance. I’ll trade you AM strike through for Run Away or auto detaunt any day. I’ll trade you AM 2nd strikethrough for a 5s CD AoE. How about that sexy stackable toughness debuff? No Cast Time morale pump? AM gets it’s bag of tricks as well. I honestly don’t know if Sham should get a strike through tactic or not.

Having said all that, the current 7pt tactic is terrible. Changing it to a strike through wouldn’t break anything imo. Nor would it actually fix anything either.

If your gonna use a bandaid, at least make sure it actually covers the wound.