[AM] M1 Isha's Ward

[Luuca]

Luuca, wtf are you doing? Are you trolling, trying to be funny, or is that actually the argument you are making?

No. I do not consider the 100% uptime Debunked. it's true. If you are not attacked, the bubble will be up 100% of the time. You think that is bad play style is not debunking anything.

100% uptime with absolutely Z E R O effect on A N Y T H I N G in-game is the same as non-existent. The fact is we consider only play that affects balance on the balance forums; no 1v1, no outliers like stacking morales etc. Running a bubble 100% of the time for no reason and with no effect on anything or anyone should not be considered as affecting balance and as such, should not be a reason to change the M1 effective time.

I said you have a valid argument, but I disagreed with it. That is not changing my point. You brought up the skill based argument.

Below is the post from this thread wherein you implied that a 20 sec CD would require skill to use effectively and conversely, a 60 CD takes no skill:

It would function exactly as it does now, but require the slightest amount of awareness and timing.

By your argumentation, the morale should be changed, as it currently requires 0 skill to use properly/badly, but with a lower duration could still be used, but would enforce a certain lvl of "skill".

Sorry, but no. The skill argument, if that's where you are headed to justify this change, should not be allowed in this thread as your premise is the 100% uptime is the issue with the ability, and not the lack of skill in using it. I will state that with a 60 sec cooldown, using the ability for no reason is a viable method to use it if you are attacked. If you are not attacked, then it doesn't matter and has zero effect on balance. If you are making the argument that it takes no skill to fire the M1 and it's there when you need it, the same can be said of any reactive ability or tactic in the game.

Sorry Luuca. I'm not playing troll games in the Balance forums.

Funny how a well stated and respectful rebuttal to your arguments is trolling. Sorry if you feel this way, but based upon your original post, the issue was 100% uptime. Many players on here disagree with YOUR definition of 100% uptime. I have proven how the use of the ability with your definition of 100% uptime has zero effect upon balance. I have stated how the ability, when used by the player being attacked, is quickly nullified by damage, and that the ability cannot be refreshed until the morale CD is ready, and not before. If you told me I could spam a 3600 damage shield at-will, I would agree it needs a CD, but the fact is, I cannot.

Edit: "doesn't have 100% uptime when used as intended" is a bullshit lie btw Luuca. It has a 60s duration, how could you say it was NOT unintended to be used that way? Other than the designers, no one knows the answer to how it was intended. By the duration of it though, the argument that being used on CD was thought of, cause you can.

Please refrain from abusive comments like this. You have the answer to this already above.

[Mystry]

being healer AM the problems comes when u mess up your positioning and then u should use FM which is superior. Other problem with bubbles is that they scale very bad with gear progression, so now 3600 looks good but when new sets and more stats become available will be meh.
Only real benefit is when do DPS AM and to chain it when soloing and to have advantage for 1v1 /2, but devs wont balance the game around that.
It is a little unique gimmick for AM but since it is not so big deal 20 sec is okish.

PS it is confirmed that while being with bubble enemy hits wont crit you?

If you smack into a magical barrier, what exactly are you critically hitting? Just a thought.

You smack a weak point in the mystical mesh that makes up the shield, causing a chain reaction like glass shattering.

[Tesq]

Since i levell up a 40rr time ago i tend to think that the bubble m1 it's the am coevalent of shammy speed proc.

We+mara hit you pretty hard and guard argument is not the panacea of all problem.

Shammy can kite better, AM get a pre dot/burst absorb. Shammy deal better with the dmg in the second half, AM bit first and then average later,l.
M1 spam it also involve risk to gave access to no other m1 tough whily shammy can always have the def stuff ready aswell the detaunt.

I know don't reciprocal adjustment but im not appelling to change something, just pointing out diff things. I think that having saw the def kit of AM being inferior to other healers maybe this is a sufficent justification tough a reductin to 40 sec could get test but less than 40 sec make the heal m1 total more worth. Because that's its higher contender, if you slot absorb m1 you dont get heal m1 which is usefull in a lot of cases

I Admit to take my words with salts cuz AM is probably the class i play worst.

[anarchypark]

never thought someone using it as pre-cast.
I can't see the reason to use life saving insta-shield, when your life is not in danger.
you can't use it when it's really needed.

are you using it instead of HoT and few healings to save GCD?
and use that GCD for dps or morale pump?
in that case, I would say it's risky play. one of playstyle.
what's the benefit of pre-shield other than 1on1 dps.

so until OP proves this is not dps 1on1 issue, I don't agree with it.

actually it looks like good morale for both heal and dps. well designed skill.

[Dabbart]

I still haven't heard a reason for why this M1 Needs to be 60s duration, other than "it's not that big of a deal, cause it sucks anyways and no one uses it".


Basically repeating what has been said already in this thread.

Spoiler:

Anarchy, Just cause you never thought about it doesn't mean much though... Or do you mean you've never seen someone using it like this? Either way, so what? You're quite specifically not supposed to appeal to your personal skill/ability as an argument.

How is this a 1v1 dps issue in any way shape or form... Number 1, I don't DPS with my AM. Number 2, I feel I have explained the use of this quite clearly, it has nothing to do with saving a GcD... I don't know where anarchy park got either of those points from. Possibly from the "set and forget" portion, but that isn't about saving a GcD, it's about having it already up BEFORE you need it.

As for Luuca's Cherry Picking, he should argue the actual point. This isn't US court where you can throw out the case on a paperwork technicality. You don't consider having the M1 on cycle to count because you don't believe you gain anything by doing that. Good for you. Doesn't make it true, or even remotely accurate. Feel free to actually attempt to argue the purpose of this thread though. Give me a reason why this M1 NEEDS to be on 60s timer. If you can't, then why not change it? Cause you didn't like my wording of the OP? riiiight. You use it just as much as I do.

Edit: also Luuca, reread my damn OP. I do bring up the "set and forget" portion. My wording was "It's a truly fantastic Morale, and the 60s timer means you can keep it up nearly 100% incase someone decides to target you." How is that sentence not true? How is that not OP for a "life saving morale"? Why does that sentence, NEED to remain true? join the discussion, stop being the snowflake I know you aren't

Both Luuca and Anarchypark(as well as others) however use the logic of the shield being a "life saver" and "why use it when you're not in danger", goes to the point. Why can you? Anarchy's point that if you use it when you don't "need it", then you can't use it when you "do" need it, is flawed. The absorp wont go away until you take 3600 damage or are able to recast it. Period. Which 3600 damage the bubble absorps is largely irrelevant, as the damage that kills you is based on many factors. Whether it's the first of 12k damage or after the first 4k, you'll still probably take enough to kill you.

"Need" is relative. Do you "need" to have 3600 of that WEs KD damage absorped before you would even have a chance to Detaunt? How about a Sorc that doesn't telegraph their DPS with WoP? How 'bout a Magus that you didn't even see dropping some undefendable DPS on you? Is any of that "needed" to be absorped? Who knows. Ofc, you ALSO still have absorp pots that you can use for when you "need it". On top of your x2 detaunts, puddle, x2 health pots, SoS, all the heals you can actually cast, and then reapply your absorp bubble once it is off CD... The AM has a lot of survival tools(as do all healers).

This also ignores drains. Gl saving that "live saving morale" if you get morale drained.

A few other cases that I personally use this M1 with:

Picture this, you get into a fight in ORvR/SC, shortish fight you wipe the enemy, you pop your M1, cause it lasts 60s, then mount up and move on looking for the next fight. You'd lose the Morale from being out of combat, but now if you get into a fight in the next 60s, you got a pre applied Bubble. Unless you are running a 2nd AM to pump your morale, you don't lose anything from this.

Gotta get away from the enemy? Gotta push past? How about trying to catch/puddle/dismount a fleeing opponent? Flee+AP pot is a well established strategy, only issue is flee kills your Morale. Good thing you can pop a 60s absorp before all your morale goes by-bye. Then push forward, snare puddle/dismount/whatever, and know you got a 3600 bubble incase they turn on you. And again, as long as you don't have a 2nd AM pumping your morale, you lose nothing.

Will you end up using it, or "needing" it in either case? That's dependant on too many other factors to say yay or nay. This M1 lasts too long for what it is "supposed" to be. A life-saving morale. No, in a dedicated 6v6 fight one wouldn't cycle this Morale. No, in a premade WB one wouldn't cycle this morale. But in a gank squad, open roaming, SCs, etc yes. Cycling this M1 is a strategy that does work. Go try it, then tell me how often you actually get MurderFucked before you have a chance to Detaunt.

[zgolec]

Spoiler:

Leave it as it is -_____-

This doesn't constitute an argument - ptp3

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

Leave it as it is -_____-

Because.....

Edit; sorry....

[Knowthyself]

Why it is not surprising to see every balance proposal thread turns into I don't want to lose my shinies corner.
I think having a class able to pop an absorb bubble of that amount every 60 minutes is simply overperforming for two simple reasons. Firstly, it does not only ignore the crit damage but also most of hostile ability functions. Secondly, being able to use it constantly two times in 60 minutes makes it better than any other defansive morale M1 in an organized group. The question is what are your chances to reach and constantly dps a healer of a well organised group with two tanks. Remember the difference double pot (max. ones) makes in rvr and the amount of absorb you can reach because of its 60second duration is much more than the maximum heal pots you can use in game and I think it is far more effective than pots.

Lastly, I don't understand why 1vs1 is being ignored from balance proposal discussions since it is a pig part of the game. Who goes roaming around with 6 man any time of the day? I believe with the current population of the game there are so many people who roams around as solo or in smaller parties as duo or a three man group sometimes and I think it would be selfishly utiliterian idea to ignore the possible inbalances it would create for them under the name of balance for the larger scale. I don't have to remind that small scale battles already suffer because of overperforming classes in this field such as WL and SW.

[Luuca]

Why it is not surprising to see every balance proposal thread turns into I don't want to lose my shinies corner.
I think having a class able to pop an absorb bubble of that amount every 60 minutes is simply overperforming for two simple reasons. Firstly, it does not only ignore the crit damage but also most of hostile ability functions. Secondly, being able to use it constantly two times in 60 minutes makes it better than any other defansive morale M1 in an organized group. The question is what are your chances to reach and constantly dps a healer of a well organised group with two tanks. Remember the difference double pot (max. ones) makes in rvr and the amount of absorb you can reach because of its 60second duration is much more than the maximum heal pots you can use in game and I think it is far more effective than pots.

Lastly, I don't understand why 1vs1 is being ignored from balance proposal discussions since it is a pig part of the game. Who goes roaming around with 6 man any time of the day? I believe with the current population of the game there are so many people who roams around as solo or in smaller parties as duo or a three man group sometimes and I think it would be selfishly utiliterian idea to ignore the possible inbalances it would create for them under the name of balance for the larger scale. I don't have to remind that small scale battles already suffer because of overperforming classes in this field such as WL and SW.

Have you ever played an AM at R4 RR40+? Even with this "overperforming" M1 bubble, you will get your s&%$ pushed in every single time against any non-AFK WE and Mara 1v1.

If you want a reason why the M1 AM shield should remain with a duration of 60 seconds, it's because the evidence shown here by the OP and others has not proven it is over performing for the class. They have not proven it has a "100% Uptime" that matters at all in-game. They have not proven that the occurrence of cycling one M1 at 55ish seconds into a 2nd M1 at 60 seconds occurs enough to matter in RVR or SCs.

If the balance forums are going to simply change abilities based upon weak, non-proven statements, why have the balance forums at all? I submit the OP and others have not met the burden of proof in any of their complaints about the AM M1 Bubble. If an ability can remain up 100% of the time and in doing so has ZERO effect on the play in-game, then why does it need to be changed? If an ability can sometimes and under very limited and specific circumstances, can be cycled for a benefit, then we must look at all abilities/morales in every conceivable oddball situation and eliminate those possibilities. I submit that the cycling of this M1 is such a rare occurrence that it falls into the category of stacking morales from multiple players and therefore should not be considered.

The OP posted on here that noone has provided a good reason why AM M1 should not be nerfed to 20 seconds. I submit he has not submitted any reasons good enough for it not to stay as is.

EDIT: Or do we automatically assume the Submitter's idea is correct and the burden on the players of that class is to prove him wrong. I cannot prove a negative.

[Dabbart]

So... correct me if i read you incorrectly, but your opinion of this is more relevant than mine? You believe I haven’t illustrated sufficient evidence, I believe I have. At that point, with the proposal being moved to the discussion page, yea it is on you to disprove me. Read the balance rules. You can argue against my points. And argue as to why it should remain the same. Refusing to place an argument because you don’t think I have met your arbitrary level of proof is asinine.

If having 60s timer has 0 impact on the game, then why so vehement against the change to 20s?

And yes. You can prove a negative. Someone says BWs need more damage on Fireball cause they don’t get enough DBs. I feel certain you could rationalize a counter argument towards that...

And I have given more than just the 55s before you start to attack the AM in examples. But keep cherry picking.