Return of Reckoning

Short version: tanks feel nerfed to the ground.

Slightly longer version: tank damage is ignorable, so no one hits tanks. Their CC is little more than a minor nuisance, so no one bothers hitting tanks. Tanks can't heal anyone other than themselves, and even then their heals/bubbles are laughable, so, you guessed it: no one hits tanks.

Think tanks are scary and OP? Go into RvR or an SC and suggest focusing down the tanks first because they're obviously OP.

Yeah, we know how that's going to end.

Better, longer version: Damage stats provide dps, crit chance, and reduction in ability of the target to block/parry/dodge/disrupt (avoid) the dps. Toughness reduces dps only.

Damage stats have a cap; the same cap toughness does. However, dps classes can "break" that cap with melee/ranged/magic power and crit chance with no parity for toughness.

Tank abilities also tend to not stack with gear. Auras provide flat-rate bonuses independent of any stat; this makes them either OP in the early game and useless in end-game, or (as in their current state) mediocre in the beginning and ineffective end-game. Armor buffs work the same way: flat bonuses, not percentages, with the same problem with scaling early to late game. Damage procs? Same thing. Even bonuses to Weapon Skill or Willpower, ostensibly intended to reduce incoming damage, have the same issue.

Guard seems to be the only ability worth using, or at least what people ask for when they want a tank in their party. Maybe I'm missing something, and that's what tanks are supposed to do: chase *real* classes around with their short-range health-battery ability so *they* can go do the fun stuff.

I've thought for a while that this game has been moving toward dps vs healers, and after a fairly significant hiatus, I'm seeing that trend has continued. WAR has been uniquely positioned to make PvP tanking really awesome, but has thus far failed to do so.

Tanks, as in tank-specced tank-classes using shields, should be tough. They should not dps, because dps classes dps. They shouldn't heal, because healers heal. They could, for example, mitigate group damage enough that it becomes more effective to focus down the tank first so the rest of their group can be more easily killed. They could reflect damage; like a *lot* of damage. Like "group mates who gets hit by AOE reflect 50% of the damage received to the caster." Pretty sure people would stop bombing until they took the tank down. They can debuff the enemy to make them more killable; this should be enough of a debuff that people say "hey, I don't like that: let's kill that tank." They could do things like CC, silence, disarm, add cooldowns, add cast times... all things that tanks can already do, but not well enough for anyone to even begin to think that the tank should go down first.

They need to keep doing these tanky-things from start to finish the way dps classes dps and healers can heal, because it's their job. Not "debuff enemy dmg for 10secs with a 30sec cd." Not "use all your AP to give people behind you a 10% chance to avoid damage for 10secs." And certainly not "use this ram because none of your other abilities are worth anything right now."

As it is, tanks are either guard-bots or simply ignored until everyone else is dead, then killed. This is not Tanking, and is a disservice to people who play these classes.

Instead of viewing yourself as someone designated at being hit like a traditional PvE tank, view yourself as someone who makes your team more sturdy.

First off guard is amazing. You can be the reason why that dps that got pulled into the enemy is able to make it back out. Learn to switch your guard to people nearby getting focused or out of position.

Hold the Line: 15% dodge and disrupt to people behind you is nothing to sneeze at.

Body block, you are this wall of metal and flesh. Stand in the way of the enemy, plug choke points, swing to meet the enemy headon when you are flanked.

You control the ebb and flow of the battlefield, your positioning in the fight means more than most people's. You can rally your pug allies onto you by your pushes and good positioning.

Challenge will reduce the enemy's damage to your team by 30% until you are hit. If people get past you, turn and challenge them, snare them, and let them be nuked.

Coordinated morales from tanks melt groups of enemies.

This is just generic things for tanks. Each tank has other utilities they bring to their allies.

litendark wrote:Short version: tanks feel nerfed to the ground.

Slightly longer version: tank damage is ignorable, so no one hits tanks. Their CC is little more than a minor nuisance, so no one bothers hitting tanks. Tanks can't heal anyone other than themselves, and even then their heals/bubbles are laughable, so, you guessed it: no one hits tanks.

Think tanks are scary and OP? Go into RvR or an SC and suggest focusing down the tanks first because they're obviously OP.

Yeah, we know how that's going to end.

Better, longer version: Damage stats provide dps, crit chance, and reduction in ability of the target to block/parry/dodge/disrupt (avoid) the dps. Toughness reduces dps only.

Damage stats have a cap; the same cap toughness does. However, dps classes can "break" that cap with melee/ranged/magic power and crit chance with no parity for toughness.

Tank abilities also tend to not stack with gear. Auras provide flat-rate bonuses independent of any stat; this makes them either OP in the early game and useless in end-game, or (as in their current state) mediocre in the beginning and ineffective end-game. Armor buffs work the same way: flat bonuses, not percentages, with the same problem with scaling early to late game. Damage procs? Same thing. Even bonuses to Weapon Skill or Willpower, ostensibly intended to reduce incoming damage, have the same issue.

Guard seems to be the only ability worth using, or at least what people ask for when they want a tank in their party. Maybe I'm missing something, and that's what tanks are supposed to do: chase *real* classes around with their short-range health-battery ability so *they* can go do the fun stuff.

I've thought for a while that this game has been moving toward dps vs healers, and after a fairly significant hiatus, I'm seeing that trend has continued. WAR has been uniquely positioned to make PvP tanking really awesome, but has thus far failed to do so.

Tanks, as in tank-specced tank-classes using shields, should be tough. They should not dps, because dps classes dps. They shouldn't heal, because healers heal. They could, for example, mitigate group damage enough that it becomes more effective to focus down the tank first so the rest of their group can be more easily killed. They could reflect damage; like a *lot* of damage. Like "group mates who gets hit by AOE reflect 50% of the damage received to the caster." Pretty sure people would stop bombing until they took the tank down. They can debuff the enemy to make them more killable; this should be enough of a debuff that people say "hey, I don't like that: let's kill that tank." They could do things like CC, silence, disarm, add cooldowns, add cast times... all things that tanks can already do, but not well enough for anyone to even begin to think that the tank should go down first.

They need to keep doing these tanky-things from start to finish the way dps classes dps and healers can heal, because it's their job. Not "debuff enemy dmg for 10secs with a 30sec cd." Not "use all your AP to give people behind you a 10% chance to avoid damage for 10secs." And certainly not "use this ram because none of your other abilities are worth anything right now."

As it is, tanks are either guard-bots or simply ignored until everyone else is dead, then killed. This is not Tanking, and is a disservice to people who play these classes.

1. If tanks had amazing damage and the suitability of a tank why play melee? you could just x guard wit ha tank buddy and lol into the back line to crush the squishy healers with high sustained amounts of damage. Considering the damage that some sm/blorcs and even Bg and Ib's can put out i would defenatly not say tanks lack damage.

2. tank cc is amazing, it just takes timing instead of spamming and hoping for the best.

3. A good premade with often give a tank a try if they judge him to be squishy. a group that looses a dps is in trouble and needs to kite, a group that looses a tank is screwed and will find kiting allot harder. If you loose a tank you are more than 100% easier to kill, all the damage on your dps is essentialy double what it would be, more even because there are less challenges and defensive morales.

4. Tanks can have fortitude, reduced armour penetration, reduced to be crit, defensive channels, and most importantly access to the best mitigation type in game block. Block is amazing it works against everything in the front and attacks from the front also have 2 chances to be defended.

5. You will not kill a tank with 10 healers behind him, it's hard enough to kill a super defensive one with only 2 healers behind him.

6. As a tank in group it is never your job to die first unless holding a zerg for the rest to escape, in a 6 vs 6 if you die first your spec is to squishy, in a wb the same applies.

7. Tanks as they stand are every bit as viable and necessary as dps, if what you say is true and believe me it isn't then people would be running groups of 3 dps 3 healers.

8. As it stands the tank is in a good place, and good tanks are a hot commodity for any guild, jealously guarded and highly desired.

in short you are wrong about the entire archetype, if i want to play my mara to any reasonable level in a group there is no way i could do it with out a soild tank.

Lots of bad information here. Tanks are fine.

peterthepan3 wrote:Lots of bad information here. Tanks are fine.

:O

The only thing I hate about tanks is how few of them there are.

peterthepan3 wrote:Lots of bad information here. Tanks are fine.

:O

MF after reading the op's post

I think this is the only game thats ever done PvP tanking well.

If anything you could argue tanking damage is high for what else they can do. But there is a fine line between people consider too much and too little damage and its going to be different for everyone.

I have no problem with tanks being able to heal as long as it cant replace an actual healer in group heal. If a tank, or dps even, can stay alive without a healer indefinitely without a healer, that would be a problem.

Unless its like a 1v1 or 1v2 or something stupid like that. In that case it seems OP but its hard, maybe impossible, to balance a game made for group play in every situation.

mad and insane thread. @op please dont play order.