Return of Reckoning

Issue:

What's that? It's a 11 point tactic from mid tree that no one uses because how awful it is.
And before someone comes and says it can be used in some very niche dot spam spec, nope, it is garbage.
If you run a spec that includes CG in its current form you are either experimenting or haven't figured out a better spec, whether that be ST or AoE.
The tactic is just bad - 33% proc chance for meagre 200-400 dmg (tooltip says 423 with 11pts investment, then comes the mitigation) in case your Chillwind or Icespikes damages enemy. It doesn't crit, and it only procs on successful damage effect.
And its a 11 points tactic investment.

Ice Spikes is a 15 sec DoT that hits about 100-200 usually, 300-400 at best (rare cases of +500 crits). Chillwind is shorter duration and slightly harder hitting, but not by that much.
Chillwind starts at 9 sec, ticks at 6-3-0 seconds. Icespikes starts at 15 secs, ticks at 12-9-6-3-0.
So assuming the proc chance RNG is working as intended, you should be able to expect one Chilling Gust dmg proc per each Chillwind used, and 1-2 per each Icespikes used per target.
However, with recent changes to damage defence mechanics, and with generally higher faces of disrupt you face from tanks and healers especially, your real chances to get CG procs are below what you could expect on average; because it procs on damage done, not upon disrupt.
Even if it comes to spamming Icespikes for AoE, you should not be using CG tactic. Against a proper enemy warband that manages HoldTheLine formations and buff stacking, you can expect your initial IS to land on 3-6 targets, and be disrupted en masse before it even gets to land on rest of the targets.
Well, after you spam out 3-5 IS to build your Dhar Magic up, you will get enough people DoTted through the initial disrupt/block check, however the DoTs still face a new check upon each damage tick.
Meaning in the end, after shooting out 27-45 IS dots, you might expect 10-30 to actually damage enemies, sometimes you face lower disrupts and sometimes you face a real 8 tank WB with HTL spam and nothing really hits.
It may have been of more value when there still existed proc-meta potential and Icespikes were not below fluff-damage tier during lower rates of disrupt.
At this point I'll just conclude that CG is garbage tactic, and very much not worth an 11 point investment into the DoT tree, not if you running AoE spec, and not if you want ST spec.



Solution:

How to fix a useless tactic? Lets take a peak at the Sorc mirror class BW has instead. In DoT/mid tree they have at 11 points a tactic (Smoldering Embers) that makes their basic 3 career dots Ignite/SlowBoil/BoilingBlood reapply with a 25% chance after DoT ends/is removed.
This tactic has a synergy with the 13pts ability, StopDropAndRoll, a ranged KD that requires target to be Ignited. Obviously not the best tactic they have in their vast arsenal of good and decent tactics, but doable in a RKD spec where you enjoy a Boiling Blood or Ignite just re-churning a target down even if they run their course down.
Now were this mirrored, it would still be unused by vast majority of Sorcs unless you really love your DoTs, simply because you would be using your standard tactics for ST dmg spec.

But lets look at the other 11 pts tactics BW has, Wildfire from the AoE tree that gives a decent tactic DoT, and works on any AoE tree ability "hit" (should check, probably doesn't even need damage to proc, but procs often enough anyway when doing AoE).
Easily better than current form of CG, because WF will proc from so many different abilities and it can crit (CG does not crit).
Maybe would work as a mirror, assuming Sorc "Wild Ice" would proc from any DoT tree ability and give target a DoT that crits, maybe worth using, but probably not since most player prefer tactics that do not have random chance to be useful, but choose instead tactics that have certain likelihood of actually being worth slotting into tactic bar, or speccing for. (difference in proc frequency between whole AoE tree ability spam versus mostly ST DoT "spam")

But the crownjewel is at the left tree, BurnThrough, a tactic that makes 2 core abilities of the dmg tree "virtually undefendable" - Fireball (2-3k crits) and Pyroclastic Surge (1.5-2k crits).
The synergy between Flashfire and Fireball + BurnThrough is just amazing. PS itself is decent ability part of normal ST rotation.
No matter how high the defensive targets Disrupt/Block, or if its a Witch Elf with anti-Disrupt Elixir, BurnThrough hits home.


So what if we take this amazing concept and let Sorc mid tree have similar amazing tactic.
And make Chilling Gusts turn Icespikes and Word of Pain(/Vision of Torment) into "virtually undefendable".
The recent Disrupt changes have hurt all magical dps classes, but one could argue BW still has the best means of countering it by using BurnThrough, whereas Sorc is somewhat clueless how to cope with high rates of disrupt.

Icespikes do 5 ticks, without crit you can expect 100-200 dot ticks. With crit, you can expect 200-450 ticks, very rarely more. Usually 50-150 on high resist targets, and in very rare case a 500 tick on highly resist debufed target.
Completely cleanseable, which is about why no one relies much on Icespikes, the abilities mainpurpose being to build up Dark Magic, both before fight, and during AoE fighting, as well as create those "200-300" pressure Dot ticks to make enemy warband healers sweat.
Any party with 2 healers or few cleanses will survive those ticks, but having Icespikes possibly as undefendable will help Sorc AoE options and possibly close the gap between Sorc and BW aoe dmg potential. Anyone who has bombed on both Sorc and BW can tell that Sorc is nowhere close to the dmg output that BW can pump out.
It would increase the AoE pressure that Sorc can put out, without making it completely OP to the levels we had on live with few BW/Sorc melting massive enemy numbers fast and easily. Just stack resist and let those damage ticks from dots tickle. (comparing 300 ticks versus 3k Fireballs - I'd argue Icespikes being far less lethal)

However the other question is, should the other ability be Word of Pain, or maybe visions of Torment? Or maybe just Chillwind (probably not, since that is already covered by other tactic in same tree granting it a spirit debuff effect)
Word of Pain hits hard, but has 10s CD. Every good healer that runs Enemy addon, or just can in general spot Sorc rotation, will see it coming and pre-HoT accordingly, and any good player will seek to break LoS by themselves when they see WoP rotation start.
Meanwhile VoT is less hardhitting DoT, but is spammable. You can expect 700-1100 crits, easily just 30-50% of what WoP crits for.

So the real argument would be whether to pick a decent dmg doing VoT that has no CD, or big spike burst DoT WoP that is the biggest warning sign an enemy can have of coming damage and cannot be spammed due to having CD.
Another alternative would be to leave Icespikes out and have Sorc "BurnThrough"/Chilling Gusts affect both VoT and WoP, turning Sorc mid tree into a proper anti-Disrupt choice in the same way BW gets to combat Disrupt with direct damage tree abilities with BurnThrough tactic.
However as Sorc AoE is still quite far behind BW AoE potential (e.g. Funnel Power, Wildfire, Flashfire, functional/reachable bomb Morale2...), I'd myself favour letting CG tactic help Ice Spikes, and then one of the other core abilities of the mid/dot tree.
(Ice Spikes will still remain in fluff damage category, but will no longer hit/miss just like wed noodles, but like strong good quality wholesome tasty noodles)



Proposal:
A: Change Chilling Gusts into affecting Ice Spikes and Word of Pain, changing the DoTs into "virtually undefendable" akin to BurnThrough tactic
(decent AoE and powerful ST DoT)

B: Change CG into affecting IS and Visions of Torment, like BurnThrough tactic "virtually undefendable"
(decent AoE and potent spammable ST DoT)

C: Change CG into affecting WoP and VoT, like BurnThrough tactic "virtually undefendable"
(powerful ST DoT and potent spammable ST DoT)

D: Change CG into affecting IS and Chillwind, like BurnThrough tactic "virtually undefendable"
(decent AoE and mediocre ST DoT)

E: Change CG into performing like Wildfire, meaning extra damage proc DoT whenever Path of Calamity ability "hits" enemy, should crit like Wildfire does
(probably wouldnt run this myself)

F: Change CG proc trigger rate from 33% to 75% or 100%, effectively behaving a bit like Funnel Power (extra damage on every direct damage ability with minor self harm) but still only triggering on IS or Chillwind.
(Probably buffs ST spec Chillwind somewhat much, a bit meh for AoE purposes considering IS being IS - superfluff when it actually lands? powerful for pugfarming, useless versus real Warband formation)

Random side "proposal" possibilities if nothing above is of interest:
-Change CG: "All of your Path of Calamity abilities are 15% harder to Block and Disrupt"
-Change CG: "Any time Chillwind/IS is Disrupted/Blocked, you will do 10% more dmg during next 10 seconds"
-Change CG: "All of your Path of Calamity abilities have 20% more range"




Summary:

CG is an awful tactic under current state of game, it's a lottery within a lottery. If there is to be some serious changes to it, it needs to change into something that is actually worth slotting into your tactic bar, competing with currently favoured tactics in use.
No point in changing it from something unused to some other form of unused.
Ideally it would not just favour ST spec, but perhaps both AoE (Ice Spikes) and ST (WoP/VoT).

And also taking into consideration, if Destro currently is able to survive often enough despite BW having access to BurnThrough Fireballs/Pyroclastic Surge (synergy with Flashfire 0 sec cast), maybe Order should be capable of surviving Sorcs possible having undefendable DoTs. (with direct burst damage always being more deadlier than DoTs that can be cleansed or healers can prepare against with HoTs)
Alternatively if BurnThrough is way too OP to be mirrored over in different variation to Destro, above are also other possibilities regarding possible future change of Chilling Gusts.
If you have played your share of both BW and Sorc, you should know that BW retains the lead by both having greater AoE Damage Per Second output, and has almost same exact ST rotations except BW gets to enjoy Flashfire+BurnThrough with 0sec cast Fireballs. (with Fireball Barrage actually being useful and Shades of Death being terribad)
One lives in the hope that something of this suggestions ends up helping with closing the gap between the wide ridge that are Sorc and BW.

extra:
Image to Sorc outgoing dmg statistics; IS is spammed a lot, but ends up doing relatively little dmg
https://i.imgur.com/VM2BTth.jpg
My sorc is played 90% of time in AoE bomb spec for Warband gameplay, stats will reflect that.

Moving to discussions. Topic will be closed on April 22.

Personally I find the concept of undefendable AOE dots to be incredibly strong, but you make good points regarding the lackluster-ness of Chilling Gusts overall.

Agreed, this tactic is pretty useless. Whilst I appreciate the argument about mirror classes and wonder really how much BWs are comparable to sorcs, at least having something comparable to Burn Through or reduced cast times on ST abilities would make a difference. Maybe a tactic to reduce cast time on some of the meatier ST abilities, for example Doombolt to 1 sec - the 3 sec cast feels more like 4-5, by which time your opponent has gone out of range? I'm trying to work with what I have, of course, but they do seem under par to the BW for sure.

I'm sorry to point this out, but whole main post should be blocked just because of that:
Either are we following the rules, or are completely throwing them out. You are known from doing comparisons between sorc/BW everywhere you go, stating that one counterpart is significantly weaker.

That whole post is a whine set up in nicer words, whilst not being true in several places, like flashfire being a 0 second cast, which it isn't.

Back to the business - I like the option E the best. Undefendable aoe dots or the hardest hitting dot in the game with insta cast is borderline op. That one was suggested before in thread regarding the topic of how to help bw/sorc, and was dissed heavily.

Sorc undoubtedly supreme range of over BW easily makes it up for all the raw damage output difference, which has become negligible after the Flashfire nerf, allowing to dish out constant high damage from the safety of the middle/back line.
Don't just downplay the sheer power of Infernal Wave with huge 65ft range and 5sec CD, which effectively is a baseline FF-powered Fiery Blast with one less defense check(on hit on the main target as well as on hit on the nearby ones) and not prone to setback on taking damage (1.5sec cast + ~2 setbacks of 0.5 =2-2.5 sec cast most of the time) or taunts, 0 sec Fireballs my ass

Coupled with Ice Spikes, Sorc is allowed much greater freedom to maneuver, while weaving filler spells like Pit/Knives in between Wave/Spikes, making it possible to stay much safer behind front line, move in for the kill with Cascade or move out of the Ruin and Destruction M2 way.
BW on the other hand has to be in the front lane to deal damage, esp. to deliver RnD, which is orders only one left and predictable crutch-nuke, and take much more damage in return, suffer melee CC, take magical aura backlash on top of Funnel Power. Or you can spec FFB and have up to ~15% less base damage in his aoe tree, effectively being a lesser version of Sorc.
As far as the morals go, Sorc has a borderline-broken high-uptime 20% mitigation for the entire group as well as very potent unbreakable by damage aoe M4 root, so I'm not sure what is the point of bringing up moral disparity between the two.

Having played both BW/Sorc vs pretty much all of the available high-end "competitive" warbands in various scenarios bar gay-ass WB duels, I'm safe to say that the current version of AOE Sorc easily outclasses BW as far as high-end bombing is concerned, or at least borderline equal. And is in no need of any kind of buffs whatsoever, especially in a way of hard hitting undefendable 65ft dot.
I just can stress enough how downplayed the advantages of Sorc are in regards to IW/Spikes range and M2/M4 in comparison how overwhined BW and his harder impact hit with RnD and Backdraft.
One barely balance-able thing I've noticed recently, when hamster hits the fan and server starts having some lag issues during primetime fights, how delightfully Infernal Wave cd lines up with slowed down server tic rate, while simultaneously how hard it gets to execute nerfed FF proc.

I find this attempt to tie lackluster single target issues to sneaky buff aoe in a ludicrous way insulting to say the least. Yea, sure, CG is a garbage tactic, like many others in the game, and it's probably better for it to remain this way then to implement any of your proposed changes to it.
Or maybe mirrored to become Sorc version of Smoldering Embers, which is another good-on-paper trash-tier tactic. But I would gladly discuss an honest proposal to buff ST tree - Path of Agony, than address this clusterfuck of ST and AOE issues all together.

Reesh wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:22 am I'm sorry to point this out, but whole main post should be blocked just because of that:

Spoiler:

3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror.

When we are balancing classes, we are doing so in isolation. That means when we are considering, for example, Witch Elf and how to address any issues the class may have, we are NOT interested in hearing about how Witch Hunter will need X buffed or Y nerfed in order to maintain mirror parity. We will address Witch Elf first, and then, when Witch Hunter comes into the frame for adjustment, address that class.

The exceptions to this rule are:

- If Witch Hunter has already been addressed.
- If the problem is exactly the same for both mirrors.

This rule applies on the realm scale as well as the class scale, and it applies bilaterally. This means that, for example, if Destruction class X is in the frame for buffs or nerfs, we are not interested in hearing about how Order class Y must immediately be buffed or nerfed to compensate or how Destruction class Z has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first. Unlike with classes, there are no exceptions to this rule when it applies to realms.

Either are we following the rules, or are completely throwing them out. You are known from doing comparisons between sorc/BW everywhere you go, stating that one counterpart is significantly weaker.

That whole post is a whine set up in nicer words, whilst not being true in several places, like flashfire being a 0 second cast, which it isn't.

Back to the business - I like the option E the best. Undefendable aoe dots or the hardest hitting dot in the game with insta cast is borderline op. That one was suggested before in thread regarding the topic of how to help bw/sorc, and was dissed heavily.

Noone ever gona post a BW ballance sugestion about how their class (coz you need to have the class) completly outperforms the Sorc. Comparisions have to be made against something coz ballance doesn't exist in isolation from anything else.
A ballance sugestion is always gonna be from a underperforming factor and slightly apears as whining.

On topic of the sugestion. I don't think anything should be undefendeble. If a skill is spammeble and completly bypass a 1 min CD morale with couple secs uptime it's broken.

And neither of you can counterprove that CG is absolute garbage in its current form.

Besides, both of you being high RR BWs, you know Flashfire was changed in February whereas you can also see my proposal being written in December last year.

As for me taking BW into account in the proposal, is because both classes took massive nerfs with the Disrupt changes, but BW at least retains one tactic that allows them to deal some undefendable spells. Sorcs EoP requires Disrupt (good luck vs Block tanks) and has mediocre dmg and 5 s CD, whereas BW's BurnThrough is something any Sorc can dream of only.
Which is why I'm taking inspiration from BW's tactics when suggesting how Chilling Gusts could be altered so that it becomes possible tactic pick for either ST or AoE spec choices.

You can make your AoE specced BW pump out far higher dmg than AoE Sorc can if you know how to play, simply from them having access to Funnel Power, Wildfire critting and being able to cast 0.75sec FieryBlasts on the move (CloseQuarters + FlashFire); my proposal of letting IceSpikes become something other than flufftier DoT is aimed at getting this gap in AoE dps potential become smaller, whilst also possibly aiding ST spec by making ChillingGusts works for two different specs (same way FlashFire does).

Well silly me, I haven't noticed the date from mobile and it surely seemed like a thing from early 2017.
But I don't see myself disagreeing with CG being garbage, I just don't see the justification for AOE Sorc getting buffed. Quite frankly, there's no gap and Sorc damage is easier to execute currently, while being safer as well.

With 4 tactics available and 2 are mandatory - 200 moral on crit(RnD) and -10 cd on Breath(combust generator) - BW is left with 2 spots. It's either FF+Wildfire(meta), CQ+Wildfire, FF/CQ+Int. Rest, like CQ+FF, simply don't work in practice(GCD being the main issue here) and are meme setups at best, that gimp your output.

Wildfire takes the place of Int tactic, lowering your damage, while providing a bit of backend dot on a few abilities. Having run both to test things out, I found that Wildfire barely makes a difference with current high rate of disrupt, rarely up on more than 2-3 targets at a time and is good mostly for bashing pugs.

Yes, the proposal was made late 2017. Please try to focus on how Chilling Gusts can change to match it's worthiness as an 11pt tactic, and less so on how the sorc and BW playstyle might differ.

roadkillrobin wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am

Spoiler:

Either are we following the rules, or are completely throwing them out. You are known from doing comparisons between sorc/BW everywhere you go, stating that one counterpart is significantly weaker.

That whole post is a whine set up in nicer words, whilst not being true in several places, like flashfire being a 0 second cast, which it isn't.

Back to the business - I like the option E the best. Undefendable aoe dots or the hardest hitting dot in the game with insta cast is borderline op. That one was suggested before in thread regarding the topic of how to help bw/sorc, and was dissed heavily.

Noone ever gona post a BW ballance sugestion about how their class (coz you need to have the class) completly outperforms the Sorc. Comparisions have to be made against something coz ballance doesn't exist in isolation from anything else.
A ballance sugestion is always gonna be from a underperforming factor and slightly apears as whining.

On topic of the sugestion. I don't think anything should be undefendeble. If a skill is spammeble and completly bypass a 1 min CD morale with couple secs uptime it's broken.[/spoiler]
[/quote]

((Well, one person actually did create a proposal about how their class' M1 is over-performing:
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=25996
It's very rare... actually the only time someone's pointed out something for their own class...it's a valid argument too.))

Kindly refrain from irrelevant comments in the balance forum - Dan