Class Balance Missing the Mark
Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:37 am
This is not a proposal. My input towards change on this server means very little, and I hold so very little sway in any "vision" that this game has... that I might as well be a bystander, a viewer, an audience member. That said, certain things should be made absolutely crystal clear, using logic, and hopefully a modicum of civility and understanding by all parties.
Per Torquemadra's request, I will not "derail" a certain other thread, but will pull in the relevant quote so that there's a framework around what I have to say here.
The core ranged KD referenced here is Eye Shot. It. Is. A. Tool. Let's not play games or wordplay here. It was a part of an arsenal that is no longer available to Shadow Warriors that are not full on Skirmisher spec'd. If we are unhappy with this tool, that's a completely different discussion.
As to no nerfs to Scout SW's... the loss of that tool is a MASSIVE nerf. I can not state that enough. MONUMENTAL shift to the class. Please go back to said thread and see my comment about the "fruit basket" offering in exchange for loss of house. I'd trade in those recent buffs in a heartbeat to have the class put back to normal, at least in regards to our CORE ability Eye Shot. To put it mildly, the exchange is NOT equal, not by a mile, not by ten miles.
I want to clarify that point...
I have many hours played as a SW. When the class changes in anyway, a person that actually plays the class gets a first hand view of those changes, gets to feel it, gets to experience it. When I play as a Scout spec'd SW, I can no longer affect fights the way that I used to be able to. I can't react to situations that I used to be able to, because I literally don't have the tool to do so. When you subtract a fundamental tool of a class's kit... that, my friend, is the very foundation of a nerf. Worse still, Scout SW's lose a major defensive mechanism by not having it. Hell, a Scout SW's survival rate against a SH that can ranged disarm now plummets, and I could ask you where's the counter-balancing mechanism about this changed dynamic? ...but that's a very narrow case study, only a taste of what I talk about.
This is not only a nerf, but a big one. If this is the vision of the community, of the devs, etc. - fine. But let's call a spade a spade. The recent changes to Fell the Weak and No Quarter do not fulfill the same role that the removal of Eye Shot does, nor is it proper to suggest that tweaking those abilities was just compensation or intended to remedy the loss for Scout SW's.
Very clear evidence of this is the fact that the change was made across the board, destro and order alike. Those balance changes were made without regard to consideration of removing a CC tool from SW's that happen to spec that tree (Scout).
If we're to delve further into that, I'll note that Scout is now the only SW mastery path that not only can't Knock down enemies, but also the only mastery path that can't lower enemy initiative.
Which brings me to my next point: We don't have an issue with Shadow Warriors having knockdowns. We have an issue with Scouts having access to it. If there was something fundamentally unbalanced with Eye Shot or Exploit Weakness on the Shadow Warrior class, it would be removed from the Skirmish and Assault mastery paths respectively. As it stands, they're still in the game! Only the Scout doesn't have access to either one.
I take issue with your assertion, Torquemadra, that if you want to dip into good abilities you must invest in them when referencing the Shadow Warrior's bevy of skills. The Shadow Warrior class has ALWAYS been predicated around switching stances for the tools you need in the situation you find yourself in. That's the very premise of the class. That's a cornerstone of what makes a Shadow Warrior a Shadow Warrior and really separates those with low skill cap or class knowledge from those that know their stuff. If a Skirmisher SW wants to debuff a destro's armor... they have to swap stances! No "investment" necessary! The investment provides bigger damage numbers, bigger debuff numbers, that's the way it goes, and that's the way it's meant to be. Destro has this too, with their Marauder.
The CC available to Scout SW's pales in comparison now to that of the other mastery paths, and this was done without justification. I haven't seen overwhelming evidence that Scout was some how superior to the other choices or surpassing them in performance, and in fact the community as a whole seems to decry the decision to follow a Scout path because they deem it an inferior choice. Our issue is not with Eye Shot. It's still in the game... Our issue is not with Exploit Weakness... It's still in the game. Our issue is with Scouts having this kind of a tool at their disposal, and it's not clear to me why. If I'm to believe these abilities are causing problems in the game, in the balance of things, we'd be seeing them remove and replaced. Period.
I want to end with one final thought, or question really. Do any of the devs, any of the decision makers with sway in these changes play a Scout SW? Spent any time as a Scout SW? Pre and Post changes? I'd really like to hear from your experience, if you feel your role changed, diminished or otherwise. What would happen if the other knockdowns were removed from the SW? Would there be any uproar? We've already deemed that they unbalance the game, no? Why are they still in? What kind of reaction would there be from others who suddenly feel the sting of change with a simple shrug from the powers that be? I'm not being facetious or otherwise pedantic with these suggestions, but rather quite serious. The Scout took a hard turn from what it was, and if you've spent any time with the changes, both before and after, you know exactly what I'm talking about!
I hope my passionate plea, my somewhat thought out presentation here does not strike a chord, though I understand there's a contention in our thoughts and our view of things. I feel like anyone that plays a proper amount of time with the class would more readily be able to weigh in on the changes. Perhaps the "Class Balance" "Missed the mark."
Per Torquemadra's request, I will not "derail" a certain other thread, but will pull in the relevant quote so that there's a framework around what I have to say here.
--Torquemadra (Patch Notes 25/11/2017)a CORE ranged KD (65ft or 81ft with tactic) with no caveat on its use (note, it used to be tied to Vengeance of Nagarythe which also used to have a 3 minute cooldown) and has no mirror function is not a "tool", its an anachronism from when armour values went through the roof and prdps had a harder time, thats not the case here, nor will it be and as a result was hugely unbalanced.
There have been zero nerfs to Scout SWs, only buffs, you want to dip into the good stuff in other trees then you have to invest in them.
That said you have an issue with anything not in patch notes or overall balance you go and make a balance thread, this isnt for complaints or your preferred vision, I trust that is clear and your derailing is at an end.
The core ranged KD referenced here is Eye Shot. It. Is. A. Tool. Let's not play games or wordplay here. It was a part of an arsenal that is no longer available to Shadow Warriors that are not full on Skirmisher spec'd. If we are unhappy with this tool, that's a completely different discussion.
As to no nerfs to Scout SW's... the loss of that tool is a MASSIVE nerf. I can not state that enough. MONUMENTAL shift to the class. Please go back to said thread and see my comment about the "fruit basket" offering in exchange for loss of house. I'd trade in those recent buffs in a heartbeat to have the class put back to normal, at least in regards to our CORE ability Eye Shot. To put it mildly, the exchange is NOT equal, not by a mile, not by ten miles.
I want to clarify that point...
I have many hours played as a SW. When the class changes in anyway, a person that actually plays the class gets a first hand view of those changes, gets to feel it, gets to experience it. When I play as a Scout spec'd SW, I can no longer affect fights the way that I used to be able to. I can't react to situations that I used to be able to, because I literally don't have the tool to do so. When you subtract a fundamental tool of a class's kit... that, my friend, is the very foundation of a nerf. Worse still, Scout SW's lose a major defensive mechanism by not having it. Hell, a Scout SW's survival rate against a SH that can ranged disarm now plummets, and I could ask you where's the counter-balancing mechanism about this changed dynamic? ...but that's a very narrow case study, only a taste of what I talk about.
This is not only a nerf, but a big one. If this is the vision of the community, of the devs, etc. - fine. But let's call a spade a spade. The recent changes to Fell the Weak and No Quarter do not fulfill the same role that the removal of Eye Shot does, nor is it proper to suggest that tweaking those abilities was just compensation or intended to remedy the loss for Scout SW's.
--Torquemadra (Patch Notes 25/11/2017)Never mind that scout had buffs in fell the weak having its additional damage modifier bracket increased from 20 to 30% or that the additional AP costs for the No Quarter tactic was cut by a third?
Very clear evidence of this is the fact that the change was made across the board, destro and order alike. Those balance changes were made without regard to consideration of removing a CC tool from SW's that happen to spec that tree (Scout).
If we're to delve further into that, I'll note that Scout is now the only SW mastery path that not only can't Knock down enemies, but also the only mastery path that can't lower enemy initiative.
Which brings me to my next point: We don't have an issue with Shadow Warriors having knockdowns. We have an issue with Scouts having access to it. If there was something fundamentally unbalanced with Eye Shot or Exploit Weakness on the Shadow Warrior class, it would be removed from the Skirmish and Assault mastery paths respectively. As it stands, they're still in the game! Only the Scout doesn't have access to either one.
I take issue with your assertion, Torquemadra, that if you want to dip into good abilities you must invest in them when referencing the Shadow Warrior's bevy of skills. The Shadow Warrior class has ALWAYS been predicated around switching stances for the tools you need in the situation you find yourself in. That's the very premise of the class. That's a cornerstone of what makes a Shadow Warrior a Shadow Warrior and really separates those with low skill cap or class knowledge from those that know their stuff. If a Skirmisher SW wants to debuff a destro's armor... they have to swap stances! No "investment" necessary! The investment provides bigger damage numbers, bigger debuff numbers, that's the way it goes, and that's the way it's meant to be. Destro has this too, with their Marauder.
The CC available to Scout SW's pales in comparison now to that of the other mastery paths, and this was done without justification. I haven't seen overwhelming evidence that Scout was some how superior to the other choices or surpassing them in performance, and in fact the community as a whole seems to decry the decision to follow a Scout path because they deem it an inferior choice. Our issue is not with Eye Shot. It's still in the game... Our issue is not with Exploit Weakness... It's still in the game. Our issue is with Scouts having this kind of a tool at their disposal, and it's not clear to me why. If I'm to believe these abilities are causing problems in the game, in the balance of things, we'd be seeing them remove and replaced. Period.
I want to end with one final thought, or question really. Do any of the devs, any of the decision makers with sway in these changes play a Scout SW? Spent any time as a Scout SW? Pre and Post changes? I'd really like to hear from your experience, if you feel your role changed, diminished or otherwise. What would happen if the other knockdowns were removed from the SW? Would there be any uproar? We've already deemed that they unbalance the game, no? Why are they still in? What kind of reaction would there be from others who suddenly feel the sting of change with a simple shrug from the powers that be? I'm not being facetious or otherwise pedantic with these suggestions, but rather quite serious. The Scout took a hard turn from what it was, and if you've spent any time with the changes, both before and after, you know exactly what I'm talking about!
I hope my passionate plea, my somewhat thought out presentation here does not strike a chord, though I understand there's a contention in our thoughts and our view of things. I feel like anyone that plays a proper amount of time with the class would more readily be able to weigh in on the changes. Perhaps the "Class Balance" "Missed the mark."