[DoK/WP] Soul Essence/Righteous Fury regeneration

[Penril]

Option A is Meh. Book/chalice regen from SC medallions is already raised from Live.

Can someone link me the source for this please? I remember the best chalices on live had 10, while in RoR they have 8. Why do you keep saying book/chalice regen is better in RoR?

[freshour]

I disagree entirely with the OPs premise the RF regen is too low. These classes use both AP and their mechanic to heal. Increasing regen would simply lead to far more backline tank healers. Adding Option B would lead to this as well.
.

One... They use AP for 1 heal. Just play the class before you comment on it please. The only AP used is if they are in fact in melee range and using transfer essence if they are low on mechanic when they should be using essence lash for more RF/SE gain followed by 1-2 group heals and a g clease - then repeat it like they normally do. Otherwise you might have been referring to blood offering but honestly, you are NEVER out of AP on this class because it just doesn't use AP when you play it as a healer - sure if you are melee you can run out of AP with one AP drain on you... but this is a healing thread.

To the OP's suggestion. The third option of fixing that tactic which is currently for the most part useless but can be used only because the other tactics are equally bad. I am sure people don't like the idea of a healer having a mandatory tactic however I'd argue that every healer/every other class has at least one mandatory tactic so in reality it is just part of the game.

Changing this tactic would need to be played with a bit. But 15-20 would make sense when you take into consideration the amount it takes to cast a heal. This change would also discourage mindless AOE bombing that would be able to proc this for both WP/DoK and increase the skill ceiling a bit in RVR/SC's (I know.... it is scary thinking about people having to actually be good).

But in reality, this would allow you to be slightly more mobile (the classes bigggggggggggggest weakness vs other healers and their kiting/healing ability). It would also allow for you to throw out more healing in the super serious situations now that shamans aren't really a healing class anymore and we just have Zealots left to pick up the slack (lots of sarcasm there).

My final thoughts are that this would be an insanely easy fix that would solve a lot of the problems that WP/DoK's complain about, myself included. We have literally no burst healing. The entire class is designed around front loading hots, having ONE semi/moderate/barely able to be considered "burst" heal (the one that costs AP) and it is ST. So we throw out AOE heals then essence lash and so forth. But i'm sure if one sat down to hash out numbers/GCD's this would really only lead to 1 more group heal per essence lash and it would also allow you more wiggle room to keep your members hotted comfortably as that is a pretty huge roll for the class. It might even allow more DE spec'd heal doks to throw Devour Essence on melee/tanks for extra healing or proc'ing the snare.

I can't find one aspect of changing that tactic that would it make "OP" as the DoK doesn't have the capability even if it could spam that one heal over and over again endlessly - to throw out enough healing to keep up a target that is being focused as the shaman could pre-nerf or the zealot can (if it is a good zealot). It would also encourage DoK's to be more middle range than back range putting them more in the line of fire (a good thing) and increase the skill ceiling in that way because they won't be a mile away throwing heals like a 4th quarter hail mary.

If anyone can think of any aspect of the suggestion that they think would be overpowered if the RF/SE gain were to be tweaked down to the 15-20 range, yet the ICD removed - I would gladly like to hear it so I can do my best to counter it with actual game sense. GOOD POST OP! Good post indeed.

[Dabbart]

Option A is Meh. Book/chalice regen from SC medallions is already raised from Live.

Can someone link me the source for this please? I remember the best chalices on live had 10, while in RoR they have 8. Why do you keep saying book/chalice regen is better in RoR?

On Live the regen rate was tied to rarity. So purp r10 books had a higher regen than the Blue rr39 SC ones. That was what I meant, should of been more clear.

Also, WP has a ST heal, can spec for a wounds buff, had have a melee attack grp heal with 0cd. There are ways to heal with AP as well as RF. That was my point. I mained a WP on Live, had a RR50 one here, and am relvling one ATM... so yea. I know the class.

[Penril]

Correct, but even though RoR blue books have same regen as live purple ones, fact remains that there are no +10 books in RoR, and we don't know if they will ever be implemented.

RoR books>live books argument is invalid unless a dev chimes in and tells us there is a +10 planned for the future.

[wargrimnir]

I don't have any plans for +10 books. Gear scaling as we go into the higher RR sets will be significantly lower than live. Perhaps on legendary gear, but that will have no significant impact on balance as those pieces will be extremely limited and not subject to farming a boss/dungeon/drop table.

[Penril]

Thanks Wargrim.

So basically, chalices in RoR will never be better than the ones from live (at least when it comes to resource regen). This probably kills OP's proposal number one.

Focus on the other 2 proposals guys.

[Tesq]

Gona bring this up now since we dont know when onslaught will be relased;

since post dok/wp nerf of group heals dok/wp always had this problem, same goes for sh/am in live; all these issue instead being fix on the class where decided to be fixed in gear by mythic.
Especially on sov.

I bring this up because the onslaught set which will be relased in some time will feature the sov regen proc.
Now with that* sov proc i say that the dok/wp is a lot better in term of spamming g-heals.
I use this as reference as that would put the dok/wp in the same situation pre 1.4, is a 35 essences rec every 3 sec ( on crit /or chance to proc dont remeber)

This is quite a lot and is bassically a boring badaid mythic done tough it was not the only additional out of spec source of regen since 2+ buff were also in sov pieces.

PROBLEMS:

-The problem all started when dok/wp was nerfed instead just cut the value (which was balanced for the essence regen we have in game) they also double (more or less cant rememebr) the value for the group heal.

-To this problem it get add the main skil rec for dok/wp which is 5 sec CD and can be parry (essence lash on dok).
Healing dok/wp dont have str and you cant expect them to spec it for heal so thats the issue your main source of rec will be costantly parried ( and you will also loose time moving around to front line possibly be KD especially on destru side with order rdps having rkd).

-Additonally wp/dok essence have a bad story of management with gear increase for free the essence regen such on sov this make balance via itiems the only viable reference we have currently.
For a sovereign dok/wp with sov chalice (10 regen) you had not to melee rec in nos tress situation under aoe stree (every 10 sec)
For a sov dok with t4 influence def chalice you had to rec exatly once every 5/6 sec in stress situation (basically every time ti was avaible you had to rec).

The melee rec also escalate in other problem such remove detaunt by this is an additiona l problem.

Atm we have no such gear till onslaught get introduced so it would be better fix the rec now so we can left it "out" of the itiemization later. Especially before onslaught wil be relased (or relase onslaught and use it as reference as how the dok/wp regen feel with that set that feature the essence rec proc)

Solutions:

A) i disagree with this because it really dont solve anything as 2 essence x sec will not make wp/dok spam as they suppose to do
(so value is not enough and more passive buff should be discourage)

B) completly disagree with this as will allow even more to be a back line spammer in medium armor basically

C) while this in practis is nice it dosent really work like this; first dok/wp can be ignored voluntary to avoid this and let em waist one tactic (smart one will see the buff with buff head and basically let you play with 3 tactics then when you are ranged rec bam, ranged KD/pounce /taunt etc focus you and kil you when you are on low essence.
Also it dosent really fix the problem as the wp should be costanlty be hit the reference is the sov proc and whole sov set; this tactic give you 35 on 3 sec if you get it while sov proc active while you are perfoming your normal duties: if that alone wasn't enough (because sov have 2+ rec on differents parts of the armor sets) then this will not be enough either).
AND for last even if this would ever be ok it will still be a bad way to fix 1 class hole by give them a mandatory tactic (which is lv 37 notless) while not only this is a problem from lv 1 but also you are FORCED to use 1 tactics so you can then eiteh rbe forced to sue the same 2-3 tactics wp/dok use not best way i assume.


I instead see possible 2 solution singolary or complementary to each other

1) i suggest that the cost for the heals get rebalanced based on the ap, of other healers and it is comparable. SO for exemple if an healer spend 35 ap for a group heal then the wp should have a saimilar cost (x global coldown not whole or w3hole but also give it more rec with aoe melee rec) ; since while dok/wp regen essence , the same do on the other as with ap + and ap tactics; also other healers start with 300 ap instead 250 essence.
For last yes they suffer ap drain but they can also benefith from ap regen source such ap potion ( on ror with 1 min CD only) etc ; dok/wp dont have such luxory They need to self manage everything on their own and when they do they loose time.

2) the second change i assume is the key to balance the rec of dok/wp is the aoe melee rec.
The skill have the big problem of being parryable as alredy said above, while it should be just made undefitable on dok it can be used to heal debuff aoe; i woudl say even respecting spec diversity this is bad for both classes: these skill should do NO dmg instead and being just undefeatable regen a ok ammount enough so that 8 regen on chalice , essence mangement , and aoe melee rec will solve the rec problem possibly moving more front line the dok/WP as you need to be a lot closer to maybe hit 8-9 ppl. I dont say the value should remain the same also if the values of the group heals would get changed. I do think a middel ground shoudl eb foudn between the ammount of the value of the aoe melee rec skill and the cost on each heals.

3) not be able to spam group heals also generate the drop in utility fo the absorb tactic which is the primary source right now with guard of caster dok/wp durability. Solving the spam issue will also make dok/wp more static healer and mroe duable since they can shrug of damages more easier by just spam healings. (dok/wp was in fact thinked as aoe heals spammers and so such is the way they tactics are balanced for, stay resist and heals).


Conclusion:
Atm the best way to regen is aoe melee rec + distance channeling mixing both you get to heal, with detaunt change you can no longer aoe rec and then aoe detaunt which saved you a lot so is really high risk vs high risk of no rewards. Same goes for cleanse with cleanse nerf you are more subject to effect such CD increase which dont let you heal so i think after done any change to essence rec and possibly move the dok/wp more frontline if this is the case detaunt and cleanse change should be rethinked.
(call this part bias but for me is a fact that wp/dok nerf in detaun and cleanse hit more dok than wp as destru have no rkd, no gap closer as WL and no melee than can apply Cd increase aoe And slayer nerf done actually nothing since you are need to stay near group for guard / out of group heals so actually this make you try to be EVEN MORE backline instead push you to the front line totally bad imo).

I also belive the distance channeling for both classes should get hit in a way it force you to use more often the melee rec, the comparison would be the distance channeling rec should allow a dok/wp on keep wall to regen every x sec the whole pool of essence but require you not few GCD but should have a lower CD, while the melee rec in the same ammount of time should do the same ( but be istant and undefeatable mean better risk vs rewards since you go closer to enemy and better GCD economy since you can start heal immidiatly rather than wait for the whole channeling to finish so that will prefer or will be forced to melee rec instead channeling from distance. (exemple : ista aoe undefitable melee rec vs 6 sec channeling from distance)
SO even with similar values the melee rec would still be better. Atm the melee rec give you for 9 target hit (cap) 135 essence. The value is not bad in reality and not to low considering is a bit more than half pool and it is considered to be used every 5 sec tough it should be used at least every 10-15 as it should had allow the user to aoe melee rec and THEN aoe detaunt.

Discalimer: ST ap heal sould be elft out of this since there is nothing that have to do with essence regen and how much channeling impact the group heal spam which atm is teh worst of all healers since you need to rec after 4 heals (which are 2 of other healers).

[vouzou]

Gona bring this up now since we dont know when onslaught will be relased;

since post dok/wp nerf of group heals dok/wp always had this problem, same goes for sh/am in live; all these issue instead being fix on the class where decided to be fixed in gear by mythic.
Especially on sov.

I bring this up because the onslaught set which will be relased in some time will feature the sov regen proc.
Now with that* sov proc i say that the dok/wp is a lot better in term of spamming g-heals.
I use this as reference as that would put the dok/wp in the same situation pre 1.4, is a 35 essences rec every 3 sec ( on crit /or chance to proc dont remeber)

This is quite a lot and is bassically a boring badaid mythic done tough it was not the only additional out of spec source of regen since 2+ buff were also in sov pieces.

PROBLEMS:

-The problem all started when dok/wp was nerfed instead just cut the value (which was balanced for the essence regen we have in game) they also double (more or less cant rememebr) the value for the group heal.

-To this problem it get add the main skil rec for dok/wp which is 5 sec CD and can be parry (essence lash on dok).
Healing dok/wp dont have str and you cant expect them to spec it for heal so thats the issue your main source of rec will be costantly parried ( and you will also loose time moving around to front line possibly be KD especially on destru side with order rdps having rkd).

-Additonally wp/dok essence have a bad story of management with gear increase for free the essence regen such on sov this make balance via itiems the only viable reference we have currently.
For a sovereign dok/wp with sov chalice (10 regen) you had not to melee rec in nos tress situation under aoe stree (every 10 sec)
For a sov dok with t4 influence def chalice you had to rec exatly once every 5/6 sec in stress situation (basically every time ti was avaible you had to rec).

The melee rec also escalate in other problem such remove detaunt by this is an additiona l problem.

Atm we have no such gear till onslaught get introduced so it would be better fix the rec now so we can left it "out" of the itiemization later. Especially before onslaught wil be relased (or relase onslaught and use it as reference as how the dok/wp regen feel with that set that feature the essence rec proc)

Solutions:

A) i disagree with this because it really dont solve anything as 2 essence x sec will not make wp/dok spam as they suppose to do
(so value is not enough and more passive buff should be discourage)

B) completly disagree with this as will allow even more to be a back line spammer in medium armor basically

C) while this in practis is nice it dosent really work like this; first dok/wp can be ignored voluntary to avoid this and let em waist one tactic (smart one will see the buff with buff head and basically let you play with 3 tactics then when you are ranged rec bam, ranged KD/pounce /taunt etc focus you and kil you when you are on low essence.
Also it dosent really fix the problem as the wp should be costanlty be hit the reference is the sov proc and whole sov set; this tactic give you 35 on 3 sec if you get it while sov proc active while you are perfoming your normal duties: if that alone wasn't enough (because sov have 2+ rec on differents parts of the armor sets) then this will not be enough either).
AND for last even if this would ever be ok it will still be a bad way to fix 1 class hole by give them a mandatory tactic (which is lv 37 notless) while not only this is a problem from lv 1 but also you are FORCED to use 1 tactics so you can then eiteh rbe forced to sue the same 2-3 tactics wp/dok use not best way i assume.


I instead see possible 2 solution singolary or complementary to each other

1) i suggest that the cost for the heals get rebalanced based on the ap, of other healers and it is comparable. SO for exemple if an healer spend 35 ap for a group heal then the wp should have a saimilar cost (x global coldown not whole or w3hole but also give it more rec with aoe melee rec) ; since while dok/wp regen essence , the same do on the other as with ap + and ap tactics; also other healers start with 300 ap instead 250 essence.
For last yes they suffer ap drain but they can also benefith from ap regen source such ap potion ( on ror with 1 min CD only) etc ; dok/wp dont have such luxory They need to self manage everything on their own and when they do they loose time.

2) the second change i assume is the key to balance the rec of dok/wp is the aoe melee rec.
The skill have the big problem of being parryable as alredy said above, while it should be just made undefitable on dok it can be used to heal debuff aoe; i woudl say even respecting spec diversity this is bad for both classes: these skill should do NO dmg instead and being just undefeatable regen a ok ammount enough so that 8 regen on chalice , essence mangement , and aoe melee rec will solve the rec problem possibly moving more front line the dok/WP as you need to be a lot closer to maybe hit 8-9 ppl. I dont say the value should remain the same also if the values of the group heals would get changed. I do think a middel ground shoudl eb foudn between the ammount of the value of the aoe melee rec skill and the cost on each heals.

3) not be able to spam group heals also generate the drop in utility fo the absorb tactic which is the primary source right now with guard of caster dok/wp durability. Solving the spam issue will also make dok/wp more static healer and mroe duable since they can shrug of damages more easier by just spam healings. (dok/wp was in fact thinked as aoe heals spammers and so such is the way they tactics are balanced for, stay resist and heals).


Conclusion:
Atm the best way to regen is aoe melee rec + distance channeling mixing both you get to heal, with detaunt change you can no longer aoe rec and then aoe detaunt which saved you a lot so is really high risk vs high risk of no rewards. Same goes for cleanse with cleanse nerf you are more subject to effect such CD increase which dont let you heal so i think after done any change to essence rec and possibly move the dok/wp more frontline if this is the case detaunt and cleanse change should be rethinked.
(call this part bias but for me is a fact that wp/dok nerf in detaun and cleanse hit more dok than wp as destru have no rkd, no gap closer as WL and no melee than can apply Cd increase aoe And slayer nerf done actually nothing since you are need to stay near group for guard / out of group heals so actually this make you try to be EVEN MORE backline instead push you to the front line totally bad imo).

I also belive the distance channeling for both classes should get hit in a way it force you to use more often the melee rec, the comparison would be the distance channeling rec should allow a dok/wp on keep wall to regen every x sec the whole pool of essence but require you not few GCD but should have a lower CD, while the melee rec in the same ammount of time should do the same ( but be istant and undefeatable mean better risk vs rewards since you go closer to enemy and better GCD economy since you can start heal immidiatly rather than wait for the whole channeling to finish so that will prefer or will be forced to melee rec instead channeling from distance. (exemple : ista aoe undefitable melee rec vs 6 sec channeling from distance)
SO even with similar values the melee rec would still be better. Atm the melee rec give you for 9 target hit (cap) 135 essence. The value is not bad in reality and not to low considering is a bit more than half pool and it is considered to be used every 5 sec tough it should be used at least every 10-15 as it should had allow the user to aoe melee rec and THEN aoe detaunt.

Discalimer: ST ap heal sould be elft out of this since there is nothing that have to do with essence regen and how much channeling impact the group heal spam which atm is teh worst of all healers since you need to rec after 4 heals (which are 2 of other healers).

I am not saying that i disagree with that but when made the purposals i had in mind for DoK/Wp to be something like melee healers. That why my personal option is towards option C.

[Tesq]

you can make em melee healer but with the right tools, regen essence is used to be used for spam group heals, you can't spam group heals when focussed due set back.

I'm all for make the dok/wp more front line ( also caster not only as hitter) but it requrie more rework specifically in set back / anti cc /durability department; this is a fix extremly for group heal spam which is cast based it have nothing to do with the melee dok/WP as the current implementation.

Since we cant derail into other dok/wp changes idk what do about it; in the currently implemantion those are my ideas, nothing block the fact that further change may rework this change if pass into even more frontline; theorically a tactic like this should be core in meccanic not even needed to be slotted if dok/wp would be a front line caster (cast + hit). Since it isn't this is teh best the class can recive since at least those solution would move anyway the wp/dok more frontline for rec (so woudl work anyway in any wya you wanna play it)

additionally i forgot to say essence lash is a propotional buff since more ppl hit mean it will regen more the higer the scale. the tactic dont scale with the enviroment and so may be better in small scale than in massive scale.

[vouzou]

Don't forget that DoK/Wp has the survival tools in the form of Bubble tactic to be close healer and with care play they can have it up most of the time.This will let you casting free especially when fighting in somewhere between middle and front line.