[BO] Da Toughest

[Dabbart]

Before I start, it's only a 32 wounds buff if you have 0 points into the middle tree. It increases as you lvl up that tree... Same with stat steal. I believe stat steal tops out at 120 if you cap the Tree, I have no idea what the wounds buff caps at.

1, You have 3 bellows. Armor/resistance is worthless for most groups(Sham/chosen can give resis and bellow doesn't stack with armor pots). So saying it is the weakest isn't inherently correct. And weak in what regard? For PvE it is arguably the BEST Bellow.

2, A seperate issue imo. The AP cost is so high to stop BOs from stance dancing their bellows mid fight. The bellows can be incredibly powerful, having this be a "problem" is incorrect imo, but that's kind of semantics tbh. I can see the argument for having Bellows removed from GCD and lessening AP cost. I don't agree with it, but I can see it.

3, 2 bellows require you to hit someone, 1 bellow requires you to be hit. It is RNG because it's a Proc. All Procs are RNG. The RNG factor of it has no bearing on it's str relative towards the other bellows, or other similar type of abilities. 25% is actually quite high... How is this a negative when it applies to every Bellow? The Stat steal is RNG on affect, and which Stat it steals.

4, If the Bellow refreshed it's self, it would be brutally OP. Especially with the amount of AoE/chain attacks the BO can put up. Unless there was an ICD upon it, but in which case it would simply be a lessening of this perceived issue, not a negation of it.

Solutions:
1, you are correct. Why would you allow a Wounds buff, and a stat steal at the same time. allowing multiple bellows at once is a bad idea, imo..
2, No reason the bellow shouldn't help allies. WP has access to an ability that does the same, I don't believe this would make the bellow "better" or more worthwhile than the stat steal however. It would however at least make it potentially maybe, possibly worthwhile...
3, I no longer have a BO, but I wouldn't want to see this, specifically for the PvE ramifications. You Got Nothin' is helpful, but the conjunction is what allows you to farm large mobs easily(as well as the block ability ofc). Regardless, 15-20% parry is a RIDICULOUSLY massive unremovable buff that is RNG based... Questions on this one: Would you have the amount of parry given be Static, or increase based on ranks in the mid tree? Both have serious issues, but entirely different types.

[Collateral]

You really think having an rng based self parry buff would be op?? Every other tank class in the game has self defense buffs (excluding HTL), and most of them are 100% uptime (take chosen/kotbs and sm), plus they buff for 25%, which is even more than the proposed change. I don't see how having an rng based self buff would be op. A problem is if the devs can't make it so it doesn't increase as you lvl up the tree.

[Dabbart]

^^^ No. I was lying and joking when I put in caps that I think it would be OP. /sarcasm

Actually reading what I write and you'll find the issue is that it is unremovable, and RNG based means it does not require a GcD.

IB requires mechanic, and is a blessing, Knight requires a tactic for Shield Rush to increase parry, and is a blessing. SM requires imp balance and is a blessing, Chosen is on 10s CD(15s buff though) and is a blessing, I've never played BG, so maybe I am blind but I don't see a parry ability for them(they have a block channel ability though).

The differences, is that each of these classes has to use a GcD to increase their parry, where if the attack is Parried they get no benefit. Each of these bonus' are removable.

If BOs could proc a 20% parry chance, this would mean that a BO in perf stance(with the tactic less stabbin me) with 20 reflexes would have a 48% base parry chance before any outside buffs or gear. That is huge imo.

Edit: also, if you get the full benefit of that Bellow with 0 ranks into the tree, then 15-20% is crazy high, since you could gain the full benefit in ANY build. Having it increase via ranks would make it more balanced actually...

[davispeed]

Spoiler:

I dont like option 2 since if i understand it correct it would be able to stag with monstro heal and any other self healing ability. Could be pretty strong and this should not be an option.

I dont thing it needs a change. Nothing wrong if one is solo oriented and it is better then the SM äquivalent but thats not the topic.

Whatever, Just stay on order side mate.

Perhaps you missed the fact you're on the balance forums where discussion is strongly moderated. Stay on the topic at hand, and refrain from posting garbage.

[Collateral]

Well then make it a blessing with an ICD of 3-5 seconds, maybe more? You are putting up problems and aren't working towards any solutions for them. Yes now I see how it would be quite powerful, but that doesn't mean there are no ways of making it work. Also I didn't say bg has self parry buff, you might want to read what I write as well. And all these abilities being blessings really doesn't mean much imo, for sm it's a spammable ability and any good sm will keep it up 100% of the time, same goes for chosen. Idk about ib and kotbs, but I'm pretty sure they have 100% uptime or close to it at least. And saying that kotbs requires a tactic and ib requires mechanic also doesn't mean much to me, because this would also require a mechanic for bo, stance. Which means you are not using other stances, sure you could switch, but then you waste gcds and a lot of ap.

[Dabbart]

You said "Every other tank class in the game has self defense buffs (excluding HTL), and most of them are 100% uptime (take chosen/kotbs and sm), plus they buff for 25%" Hence why I put the BG there. I did read what you wrote, I doubt you mean the BG Block channel, since the BO already has that, again I don't play BG so I am just looking at the career builder, but I don't see any other Avoidance self buff ability for the BG(they have the disrupt tactic ofc)

Sorry, it's not on me to theory-craft ways for something I don't agree with to work. I see issues with it, and post them. And I did actually post ways to alleviate some of the issues I perceive. If the person creating the idea wishes to alter it based upon my perceptions, that is up to them.

What does matter to you then? The fact that blessings can be severed? The fact that every other tanks parry buff requires a undefended melee attack(BOs can proc on AoE or Axe Throws)? Most classes have a sever of some type, and AM/Sham can slot a tactic to wipe blessings at a 25% chance(in AoE). Hence, they are removable, and the change we are discussing would not be. Which is one of the reasons I am arguing that they are not comparable. The other reasons being required tactics, use of a mechanic, and whether the buff requires a GcD to activate it.

The parry increase from the Bellow would have no mechanic, stance, CD, Tactic or Gcd requirement, would be unremovable, and proc on every attack. Making it an entirely Unique and powerful buff to the class which goes too far imo.

My example of the BO using another tactic to assist in stacking parry was just that. An example. If you ran 2h and ran Guud at Big Choppin! You would sit at 38-43% (with 20rr into reflexes and the proscribed 15-20% parry buff proc. Before any gear, WS(remember, guard damage comes it at STR 1, so you get full WS parry bonus), or outside buffs, and with no mechanic requirement.

Altering the bellow to provide an inherent parry bonus would be OP imo. I would rather see the ability proc on team-mates or allies in 30ft range of the BO, and allow testing to see whether that makes it worthwhile or not before the ability is entirely rewritten.

[Collateral]

And that's why I said it could apply a blessing that can be removed. Add an ICD to it so it doesn't proc instantly when it's removed. But I have to say that even that seems to be too much. This would give BOs a chance to come close to or even at 100% parry (keep in mind this can never be 100% uptime though). I already wrote in the BO thread that the current maximum I was able to achieve was 84%, although you gimp yourself by doing it (maybe you could get even more, I didn't try every single piece of gear). So adding another 15-20% means they could get to 100%. But for that you still need max rr parry, 2 tactics, all parry gear, 2 procs (overlord and Bane) and M1. So I'm still not entirely sure about this as you really need a lot of stuff to make parry work on BO. Compared to some other tanks it's clear they can stack parry more easily, either with abilities or tactics. E.g. a snb chosen can easily get to 70% parry with only one tactic and ability and keep it pretty much at 100% uptime, while a 2h BO has a hard time if you don't have at least one tactic and use an M1 for 10% parry, or if you don't rely on a weapon proc for 10% parry. This obviously can't be 100% uptime.

But this is just an idea and other people have to say what they think, the discussion can't be just between the two of us.

I would also rather like if it gave some sort of a group buff. The idea of being a paladin is really getting into my head

As for the bg, I meant that they can stack insane amounts of disrupt or dodge while 2h, but I might be wrong.

[Bozzax]

Ideally DT should remain self centric (BO only) and 55ap should be kept to prevent "twisting".

2h SMs, IBs, Kotbs, BGs, Chosen all have abilities that make their 2h build far more viable as they have panic buttons (even multiple) and typically much more base avoidance and stronger self heals / absorbs.

I dont think the proc should be allowed to refresh itself but reducing the duration to 5s would go a long way to make it a tad more attractive. It would also make it more at par with SM absorbs that can yield a much higher mit.

A BO only parry/dodge buff would give a 2h BO what the others already have. The "cold start" and 25% proc gives it downtime so there is no need to worry about it being op. Do remember using it means you aren't statstealing which is a big thing.

Not much to discuss really these are things the other tanks already have.

(For SM consider block)

[Morf]

Option 2 would make the most sense to me, would still gain more using the da biggest and procing ini/tough/will to make you and your group harder to kill, guess it would have a use with a 2 black orc group where your group alrdy has a shaman resist buff and all using armor pots so no use for da greenest.

[Penril]

I just want to mention (for those who think option 2 would be too strong) that Mythic had planned something way stronger for this skill, as per 1.4.9 patch. They even wanted to add a wounds debuff to the bellow!

https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1352

Having said that, option 2 makes the most sense imho, and it aligns pretty much with what Mythic intended.