[AM/Sham] AP Drain

[footpatrol2]

Drains are like snare annoying but there is disrupt, 2x ap potions, ap recoup abilities, ap/s gear, ap group regen abilities, ap recoup morales/ renown cleanse, ability cleanse, morale cleanse and group cleanse.

And AP reducing tactic's/morale's to mitigate the effectiveness of the drains. There is a ton of counter play here but noyone wants to be bothered slotting or specing into them. Some of it is baseline. Ever wonder why guerilla training or merciless soldier on the SW is even there? This stuff costs one SINGLE spec point to have the option of using because it is likely your going up in those tree's to grab stuff. Ya know... those tactic's that noyone spec's into because the community deems them worthless...They are not worthless its just you don't value them because you didn't have to deal with ap drains a lot because the community deemed shamans/AM worthless for a long long time so you didn't have to worry on it. The current meta is built on not having to deal with ap drains. Now you have too do to the popularity of shamans/AM's.

There is a ton of ap reducing tactic's and everything that bozzax listed. There are in game mechanic's already there just gotta look for em and prepare. Or don't and take the risk. I'm 100% behind the idea of taking risk. I play group comps that can't cleanse BW/engi's/AM's. Thats a acceptable amount of risk I am willing to take for what I'm trying to do.

How about Soothin Mushroom Wrap m1 from the SH. Dirty diry slow morale gain rates hurts the use of this but with correct morale gain rates you could use this nearly instantly. You could use this within 6/10 sec's with correct morale gain rates. Anything tied to morale's is crushed by the wrong morale gain rates which is problematic and causes overarching balance issue's. 10 sec's out of 60 the entire group can use abilities at 50% of the Ap cost. Most of the time the outcome of a fight is determined within the first 10/30 sec's which is within the time you can pop this. Why do you think its in the game? This stuff is here for a reason.

[dansari]

I'm sorry I'm not following. When nearly all of my abilities get cancelled if it's not an instant (as a SW that means mainly dots) because of having an ap drain on me, how does having a *relatively useless in every other situation* tactic that reduces the AP cost (of one third to one half of my abilities) a "counter play?" If my ap hits 0 during the ability cast because I'm literally being drained to nothing, why would having less cost mean I can play against it? I'm still going to hit 0 ap during the channel. (This coming from someone who stacks as many +AP items as I can manage).

Why should I have to actively change my spec on the off chance I get ap drain focused because the ability is so punishing? Why would we be talking about changing an over performing ability that most of the community agrees needs to be tweaked if there was a viable option to deal with it?

[NSKaneda]

I'm sorry I'm not following. When nearly all of my abilities get cancelled if it's not an instant (as a SW that means mainly dots) because of having an ap drain on me, how does having a *relatively useless in every other situation* tactic that reduces the AP cost (of one third to one half of my abilities) a "counter play?" If my ap hits 0 during the ability cast because I'm literally being drained to nothing, why would having less cost mean I can play against it? I'm still going to hit 0 ap during the channel. (This coming from someone who stacks as many +AP items as I can manage).

Mainly because, as SW, you can reduce range (glass arrow) of the SHM that is draining you preventing him from reapplying and silence right away. This is what Hunter's favour (cost: 25APs) allows you to do without having to change your spec.

Why should I have to actively change my spec on the off chance I get ap drain focused because the ability is so punishing? Why would we be talking about changing an over performing ability that most of the community agrees needs to be tweaked if there was a viable option to deal with it?

Hunter's favour works for group. No need to respec. But to answer your question: because RoR is a dynamic game where people come up with new builds changing game's meta and thus requiring constant re-evaluation of builds and adaptation to changes. There's a law in biology that applies here: adapt or die.

lol have you ever been hit by Force of Will as a healer or a melee for that mather, while having a melee train on you? Yeah just pop AP potion and you're fine (sarcasm)

I have. Force of Will is instadrain, thanks for confirming my point of view. Bombing situation all the way

[dansari]

I'm done contributing to a derailing of this balance proposal, so I'll just say: I've hit Hunter's Favour being ap drained before. If anything it gives more ap to the shaman, and it's on a 1min cd. Silence has a 40s immunity and lasts for 4s, so you might receive 10s of respite every minute. Hardly seems balanced.

[footpatrol2]

@dansari
It is not about what you do individually. Its about the combined effect of what a group can do. Your only one piece in the group. Other member's are also contributing.

[Dabbart]

Actually. This thread IS about THIS specific AP Drain.

And the issue now, as previously stated by Gerv, is to "Provide evidence there are alternaive solutions, not already posted, to restoring group AP" or to provide "Alternative solutions that reduce its strength but maintain situational effectiveness".

So far, I have seen a bunch of theory crafting. The only actual answers to the first is to pop your CDs. Once those are gone, then what? You can't rely on cleansing. Period. After the first 10GcDs, who the hell knows how many debuffs/dots might be cycling on you. You can't rely on long CDs, because they have long CDs.

As it stands, Yes. Nearly everyone can handle an AP Drain on them. But not indefinitely. And if you drop 2 of em, you are done. 6v6, one side has 2 sham/am one person is going to be permanently AP drained, and there is nothing you can do about it. Now, Morfee's OP has already posted the required change to fix that.

Random theory crafting group compositions to cope with a single base ability just proves how powerful it is.

[footpatrol2]

Here is a group comp that has a heavy AP feed element to it. This is not a specific caledor woods type group but it is just an example of a AP feed group.

2 zealots 2 magus 2 chosen. Use close formation type which basically mean's everyone hugs the magus pets.
Both Magus player's take lasting chaos tactic. 20 ap every 2 sec's that's 40 ap every 2 sec's (works outside of group)
Zealots take empowered alteration tactic 48 ap over 9 sec's. Target yourself since your using close formation type it will heal/ap feed everyone. Thats 96 AP over 9 sec's to everyone.
One chosen uses Ap Aura 20 Ap every 5 sec's.
two zealot's could use if you wanted 2 ap ritual's each attack has 2 20% chances to grant 50 ap per attack.
You got sprout carapace feeding 100 ap every minute.
If sprout carapace was m3 like it used to be that would be 100 ap every 30 sec's.
Chosen's can slot chaotic advantage for basically immunity to ap drains.
And zealot's can cleanse AM's ap drain's...
Take some AP feed gear.

Here is a video of the playstyle. I'm the zealot. This group has elements of the above in it. Obviously as you can see it is not specifically the exact group comp as above. I couldn't find the specific classes I wanted for the group at the time. You make due with what you got. We lacked a 2nd magus and zealot for even more ap feeding. But hopefully you get the idea. There are other Ap feed groups you can do but a lot of em need the correct morale gain rates to function properly.
https://youtu.be/8RkIWZj0_ps?t=803

[Sigimund]

One person locked down by two players using their "CC" does not seem so unfair although if it is seen as CC then some kind of diminished return on the suppression part of these spells might be logical.

Also, the required counter should be similar in effort to what is being countered. Two shaman in a group is a composition choice so group comp is fair to list as a counter. Just not the composition of the whole six man group.

[Bozzax]

Zeal and RP can spam cleanse ap drains
Ap potions = 20 sec "immunity"
Disrupt
Cleansing winds

(SWs have it even easier with M1 self cleanse)

Lets see some real proof of ap-drains being the new 6v6 meta

[lastalien]

Spoiler:

To much OP. Not need buff ap drain.
If you want buff ap drain, buff ap potions to, lol

This thread is not about buffing the AP drain. Read the original post or don't post at all.
Gerv.