Cleansing Wind redesigned

[Miszczu5647]

I would seriously talk about renown skills such as Cleansing Wind, Resolute Defenses and Quick Escape. All those skills have similar issues and was poorly designed as solution for soloers (I don't say that soloing is bad thing as such) by making it a lot easier. Also, as these skill are so important to every class, they take flavor from different class and make everything flat (no different play style on different classes). On the other hand smaller groups should have some tools to engage and disengage against bigger groups (guerrilla tactics).

First will be Cleansing Wind.

Issues
1. Easy to use.
CW require minimal skill to use. You see some debuff's on you? Press the button and you are free. Only skill this skill require is to setting properly your Buff Head addon.

2. No counter play.
CW is impossible to counter. It is instant cast and as such can not be removed from you. Your opponent don't have a chance to do something about it. It is punishable especially for DoT's based characters.

3. Poor reward/risk ratio.
You use 1 GCD to destroy all effort's someone put in bringing you down (and spending few GCD trying).

Solution
Redesign CW into something like this:

Level 1 (10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments.
5 min cooldown.

Level 2 (another 10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments. Heal you by 600 HP over next 9 seconds (three ticks – 200 HP per tick). 2 min cooldown.

Level 3 (and another 10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments. Heal you by 900 HP over next 9 seconds (three ticks – 300 HP per tick). 2 min cooldown.

This way you will still have tool to save you from massive DoT's bombing, but also you will need to evaluate situation (in short period of time). Because sometime loosing your buff's could be more punishable than cleansing all the debuff's. Also you will need to spend few GCD to restore your buff's (when fighting it will be matter of choice – buff or dmg skill). This resolve directly issue's 1 and 3. And builds into skill resolve for issue 2.
If you want to make CW more harsh it could also remove buff's from potions.

[Gerv]

Moving to discussions - Note, as per the other thread, I will be away from the 5th of June until the 13th and this thread will be temporarily locked.
Gerv.

[Darosh]

I agree to the OPs breakdown of the issue and the proposed solution.

I could only think of some form of reverse scaling (tick/duration/heal of the HoT) to add to it.
Something for R2 and R3 that'd nullify the burstheal in everything outside of super small scale roaming (less debuffs cleansed ~> more heal, more debuffs cleansed ~> less heal)... but then again I am a pugshepherd at heart, so I don't see why that should be encouraged with something like that.

The cleanse aspect of it is already ridiculously potent as is, even with the buff removal and without the burstheal as proposed by OP.

Just in case, before anyone considers it, I'd steer far far far off granting any benefits in return for buff removals... you'd have people abuse it one way or another.

Abbd.: Pot-removal should however not be an option. I am all for the draconian approach - and I'd even add more drawbacks than just the buff removal to it - but pots are even out of bounds for me.

E: Words and stuff.

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

I like the concept. I personally think it's still far too potent... even with thing change, it's still massively better than anything else. I dislike it getting such a short CD at higher ranks, but I also dislike it being an "I win" button and I don't know if your solution REALLY fixes that IMO....



I would to see all ranks of CW kept at 5minute CD. The advantage of it being upgraded would be the heals.

Or,

I would.like to see the cost increases to 15 per rank.

Right now CW is by FAR better than anything else for 10 points.... making it 15 Is a tougher call... especially now requiring 30 RR for a 2min cD...

Or... as I said, 10 each but all ranks stay 5min.

"When responding, be sure to use facts and support your reasoning rather than relying on the strength of your own reputation to support your post, no matter how good a player you may be."

I have spoiler'd you previously for not explaining why. You need to give reasons for your opinions, otherwise you are not responding to the issues or solution raised in a manor that forwards discussion.
For explain, why is making it 15 points a "tougher call", "I don't know if your solution really fixes that" why don't you think it fixes the issues raised by the OP or Why do you "dislike it getting such a short cooldown at higher rank"
Continued failure to response appropriately will be warned and if continued, sanctioned.
Gerv.

[Atropik]

First will be Cleansing Wind.
Issues
1. Easy to use.
CW require minimal skill to use. You see some debuff's on you? Press the button and you are free. Only skill this skill require is to setting properly your Buff Head addon.

Lets be honest, every ability in the game require minimal skill to use, push the buttun and voila!

2. No counter play.
CW is impossible to counter. It is instant cast and as such can not be removed from you. Your opponent don't have a chance to do something about it. It is punishable especially for DoT's based characters.

Dots based characters have mostly 10 secs cd on their rotations and standing in 100+ ft away from you, they dont bother about your unconterable 5 min cd CW. Trust me.

3. Poor reward/risk ratio.
You use 1 GCD to destroy all effort's someone put in bringing you down (and spending few GCD trying).

Where the hell did you get the idea about some "risk ratio" in using abilities? Is it from Heartstone?

Solution
Redesign CW into something like this:

Decline all the solutions, dew to the lack of issues. Ok, i lold enough, and to be serious, this solution is even more ridiculous then issues:

Level 1 (10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments.
5 min cooldown.

Level 2 (another 10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments. Heal you by 600 HP over next 9 seconds (three ticks – 200 HP per tick). 2 min cooldown.

Level 3 (and another 10 rr points):
Removes all Curses, Hexes, Ailments, Blesses and Enchantments. Heal you by 900 HP over next 9 seconds (three ticks – 300 HP per tick). 2 min cooldown.

Drawback is in removing HoTs from you? are you seriors? Player using CW to stop dying right now.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

Lets be honest, every ability in the game require minimal skill to use, push the buttun and voila!
[snip]
Dots based characters have mostly 10 secs cd on their rotations and standing in 100+ ft away from you, they dont bother about your unconterable 5 min cd CW. Trust me.
[snip]
Drawback is in removing HoTs from you? are you seriors? Player using CW to stop dying right now.

So, one shall not bother as it does not help one surviving, but then again people use it to stop dying? Flawless logic.

If you look at coordinated play the ability majorly increases the TTK as it completely negates coordinated bursts from certain classes, whilst providing burstheal on its own [Abbd.: The latter is arguably not an issue in 6v6 given barely anyone will pick R3 in everything 6 and up.].
6v6 can last ages, and will last even longer if everyone and their mother runs RD/CW completly screwing over each and every bit of preperation for bursts made throughout the engagement - oh, and once another opportunity opens to apply pressure...well RD/CW are up again. Yes, voilà you are looking at potential hours of back and forth.

All things considered I'd flatout limit the amount of debuffs cleansed and bind the number to the rank whilst completly scrapping the healportion of it. All things considered: If you want heals and cleanses you will run with a healer, if not you'll chug pots and pray for a subjugator cloak.

[Atropik]

So, one shall not bother as it does not help one surviving, but then again people use it to stop dying? Flawless logic.

Well, it helps once every 5 mins, logic?

6v6 can last ages, and will last even longer if everyone and their mother runs RD/CW completly screwing over each and every bit of preperation for bursts made throughout the engagement - oh, and once another opportunity opens to apply pressure...well RD/CW are up again.

Have you ever participate in 6/6?

[Darosh]

So, one shall not bother as it does not help one surviving, but then again people use it to stop dying? Flawless logic.

Well, it helps once every 5 mins, logic?

6v6 can last ages, and will last even longer if everyone and their mother runs RD/CW completly screwing over each and every bit of preperation for bursts made throughout the engagement - oh, and once another opportunity opens to apply pressure...well RD/CW are up again.

Have you ever participate in 6/6?

Its a bit exaggerated, yes - however I am inclined to ask you the same question.
If not only because you are hellbent on arguing out of a soloroam perspective in both threads.
Abbd.: Guess I should have added to the above that I am talking about 6v6 on an equal footing, not a faceroll. My bad.

Do you mind sharing your perspective and why you deem the current iteration of CW reasonable?
It equates 1/6th of a DoK M2 an entire warband can pickup without any drawback whatsoever.

E: Words and stuff.

[Atropik]

Do you mind sharing your perspective and why you deem the current iteration of CW is reasonable?
It equates 1/6th of a DoK M2 an entire warband can pickup without any drawback whatsoever.

To make a long story short, CW/RD gives a chance to gimp classes in pug scs. Otherwise we will see only rdps there.

Its a bit exaggerated, yes - however I am inclined to ask you the same question.
If not only because you are hellbent on arguing out of a soloroam perspective in both threads.

I spent years fighting 6/6 on Russian Official, still have hours of video vs KappaPride or vsInvasion. And the main lesson ive learn - 2 min cd is far more then enough to pick someone off in a close 6/6 fight, but the main issue - in most cases, you will have only 1 cgd to react on being assisted - and ud better spend it on detaunt. After that, only pressure over time wins the fight,rd/cw has nothing to do with that.

Entire wbs will brainless stomp you anyway, or they will not, - depending on your position mostly, but not on abilities you use. They will never coordinate their cw/rd cause of equip/class/skill difference between players, that is not an issue.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Will post same thing here as i did about Resolute Defence

"CW, QE, RD etz lacks comparability with the other stats you are able to invest in with renown points and is very hard to vallueate in the same way.

They also, like mentioned above, give classes acess to toolkits that their class wasn't designed to have acess to. They also contribute to the Kite instead of Fight mentallity wich imo isn't healthy for the game.

They should just be inactivated imo. I don't think any comprimise can be made with these skills".

I don't care about your opinion, unless you can give examples and reason as to why you think that way. How does CW impact the group dynamic, what classes benefit most, how does that allow them to over perform?
Why is it not comparable, how does it contribute to the kite mentality?
One may argue that the ability to cleanse contributes to continued fighting.

To have a discussion and allow refuting of points, you need to provide reasoning, not a wall of text, but point that support your thinking.
Gerv.