[Review] [Tank] Focused Offense

[Eathisword]

The problem with 1 and 2 is that tanks function differently, especially from a DPS perspective, as has been pointed out in this thread before. Crit is very desirable for Black Orcs, while it would have a lesser value for most other tanks. AA speed would probably benefit SMs/BOs more than other tanks due to Potent Enchantments/Loudmouth while a strikethrough tactic would be competing with Discerning Offense and would probably be useless for SMs.

Similarly on destro side of things a morale pump tactic would be much less valuable since Chosen/BO already have good ones. An AP boost tactic would really only benefit SM as other tanks have good AP options.

Balancing FO in order to make it as equally desirable by all tanks as possible would be incredibly difficult.

As for your second suggestion, since Focused Offense itself is an offensive tactic by name and purpose and it being the only archetype DPS tactic I couldn't agree with changing it into a defensive/utility one. Not to mention that you're potentially running into even bigger balancing issues there.

While some would argue that tanks' damage is fine as it is and they don't need an archetype damage tactic I disagree, some tanks are fine, while some feel very sub-par when offensively focused. The more I read and think about this topic the more I feel like any archetype tactic balancing can't be tackled before game-wide tank balance is addressed (Knight/Chosen, BG/IB issues in viability in different aspects of the game). Any changes to FO right now would upset the tank balance even further.

You have good points. I was more or less thinking about a mix of different stuff, like +5% crit and 15% AA haste. Or 5% damage and 5% strike-through.

Tbh I agree with not changing it now though. It would probably be a waste of coding and design time, as it doesn't make or break balance right now. It is just another useless thing in the game.

[TenTonHammer]

Crit is very desirable for Black Orcs

Not really since they have SYG and GS

[GodlessCrom]

I think he is saying that crit chance is desirable because of Stab You Gooder. Stat steal+Gork Smash do give you a lot of crit though.

[Jaycub]

Crit is very desirable for Black Orcs

Not really since they have SYG and GS

Crit is just as valuable going from 10% to 20%, as it is going from 90%-100%, it's only after 100% that it becomes less desirable.

Crit is a multiplier of base damage, whereas power/str for is a flat adjustment. Unlike other tanks, BO's crit multiplier is 175% instead of 150% via racial tactic meaning they do get more out of crit than any other tank ~15% more damage?

Cases where you are making decisions based on a tradeoff between str and crit, and you don't choose crit is pretty much nonexistent in this game as well.

[Luuca]

The healer equivalent reduces effectiveness in that role for taking a dps boost. Surely the equivalent then is guard. Reduce guard effectiveness. Why should a tank be able to take a tactic that is meant to mean you are abandoning your role and still maintain full effectiveness of the main mechanic of that role. Reducing the armor loss while still keeping the damage bonus and full effectiveness of your archetype mechanic. Seems like a no brainer that the armor loss is meant to stop tanks guarding. These tactics say I am a dps.

I guess the reasoning behind not using Guard % decrease in effectiveness it is that FO is most commonly used by 2-Handed specs. As such, most 2-hander tanks do not guard, knowing that FO makes them squishy, the lack of a shield eliminated all Block ability for both incoming damage and incoming Guard damage. So as the OP suggested reducing the effectiveness of Guard for a tank going loldps using FO, is IMO like limiting the number of napkins the fat kid can take when he gets his double scoop sundae. Pointless. They don't (usually) guard others (unless it's a roaming duo and we are not balancing for that) so the penalty is moot.

I like the idea of making the penalty a flat % decrease in Toughness, say 25%. This would make the tactic more viable for both SnB tanks as well as 2-hander tanks, moving it up a little in the hierarchy of tactics while increasing the amount of damage the tanks receive overall, and yet not turning the tanks using FO into renown pinatas as every tank class has a toughness buff.

[wpc56]

FO can be used with sword and shield, I've tried it before and it can be fun if there aren't too many melee and you are always the last to be targeted.

I oppose buffing FO though since no one bother talking about opportunity cost of having a dps tank vs mdps... and people seem to forgot about taunt and challenge... that's core tank ability they'll still have access to.

So in 6v6 (as that's always the basis of comparison), why would you bring a marauder or WL when you can bring a melee focused tank? You wouldn't... you get equivalent dmg, perma ensnare, taunt/challenge (best debuff) and have the option to use a shield.

What's to stop BO sword and board to boost +block and + crit from going out of control? They already do respectable dmg while blocking both physical and magic dmg

[altharion1]

FO can be used with sword and shield, I've tried it before and it can be fun if there aren't too many melee and you are always the last to be targeted.

I oppose buffing FO though since no one bother talking about opportunity cost of having a dps tank vs mdps... and people seem to forgot about taunt and challenge... that's core tank ability they'll still have access to.

So in 6v6 (as that's always the basis of comparison), why would you bring a marauder or WL when you can bring a melee focused tank? You wouldn't... you get equivalent dmg, perma ensnare, taunt/challenge (best debuff) and have the option to use a shield.

What's to stop BO sword and board to boost +block and + crit from going out of control? They already do respectable dmg while blocking both physical and magic dmg

In the situation you describe a pure mdps would still be preferable because:

- BO has no heal debuff
- No snare immunity ability
- No gap closer
- No detaunt
- No pull ie mara/WL
- Would lack offensive group buffs - ie choppa AA haste, WE crit morale etc

Thus it would balance out the fact that a BO could use a shield as you would lose the above things.

Having a BO instead of a normal mDPS in group would create different kinds of group setups (in the same way a dps dok can replace a mdps). More variety makes the game more interesting.

[Tesq]

would be not preferable a flat trade off?

-do x % more dmg and get x % more dmg

aynway some tanks do way too many dmg, i think that the 10% cap should be apply if the tactic is made more affordable

10% dmg for 10% dmg more ( for above arguments as hit 1 target byt get hit by more target maybe 10% more dmg for 5% more dmg on you).

Regardless, yes tank should be able to assist but this tactic gona escalate with alredy good at assist tank and will not give as base to all tanks the chance to assist better; as the % in dmg increase scale better the higer the base dmg; is not a flat value is a % increase and so it's op by definition; every % is op in warhammer.

So the point is , does tanks need even more way to assit in term of dmg? does every tank loosing a tactic really give something in return? is for some tanks this just a buff in dmg with oout a utility trade?

And also what's the point of this tactic? many share that is bad for pvp but the 33% trade off in armor is also due the 15% less agro for the off tank in pve; does this have a meaning in pve/ time istances like tovl where you need to kill in x time and so you need additional dmg? does maybe matter since 2x tank will guard 2 dd and soe both tank recive more agro? whatif the second spec more off then the first and the last one would loose agro? does menace tactic be enough or rather dev planned to make it enough or maybe mob if the agro is too much in certain values will stop and hunt for the off tank etc etc?

if PVE is not the point then what's should be the point of such tactic?
-wanna be dps?
-pve farm?
-solo?
-group play? (if group play should loose tank guard for more dmg? and so on)

i thing that it should be decide first what this tactic aim should be before balance it also considering the plan for the pve in the future since in its current form it have a relevant 15% less agro for the pve off tank that still guard a dd and doing more dmg due being offensive will need maybe a tactic like this.

P.S. on a joking note please do not allow again a 2k ravage spam

[altharion1]

Having a revised FO tactic that works as per my proposal, ie reduced guard effectiveness, would solve the issues raised surrounding PVE as well. Due to the aggro management being effected.

Also if the Devs are ever able to implement PVE instances, then they'd have conquered the patcher issue. So if the revised FO tactic was op in pve then they could just adjust the instances to make them harder anyway. This PVE argument is so moot. I don't know why people are bringing it up over and over.

My initial idea was not to buff damage done by dps/assist tanks. It was to adjust the tactic to offer tanks an alternative role as pure dps. This would be done by increasing base damage but removing the effectiveness of their primary role (guard), and lowering survivability.

If tanks dont guard at the moment then my proposed change would have little effect on the game anyway. You're just going to have a lot of super squishy pug tanks running around doing a little bit more damage - still just as useless as before. In 6v6 it wouldnt effect a 2x2x2 setup as both tanks need 100% guard effectiveness, so tanks wouldnt use the revised FO tactic. But you could run 3tanks, 1 dps, 2 healers - with one tank being pure dps but not being able to guard and being more squishy than usual. Where is the negative impact on the game????

The existance of this tactic and tank dps trees shows that tanks were meant to be able to do damage while losing their survivability. Why should a dok be able to respec and do competitive and viable dps, when tanks have to relog to another character?

[spikespiegel84]

Talking as a Chosen, I simply don't see which tactic give up for FO anyway. Crit, ap regen on parry, crit suppression, and already choosing between toughness, quick discord, hastened dismissal, destined for victory.