Return of Reckoning

I've seen people posting stuff implying that s/b tanks have much better survivability than 2H tanks. These posts seem to imply that the 2H tank gains nothing worthwhile from dropping their shield and taking up a 2-hander. So I'd like to provide a comparison of balanced builds for a 2h tank and s/b tank based on the evasion stats that the shield supplements.

The comparison is made for level 40 toons. The tanks are assumed to have 300 weapon skill, 230 initiative, and 100 willpower, 1H weapon dps value of 51 (best scen weapon currently available), block rating on shield = 357, 2H weapon dps = 74.

Formulas used in the following calculations are:

Block% = 20% x block rating / attacker's main stat
Parry% = 7.5% x weapon skill / attacker's strength stat
Dodge% = 7.5% x initiative / attacker's ballistic skill stat
Disrupt% = 7.5% x willpower / attacker's intelligence stat

Block% against Guard damage = 20% x block rating / 350
Parry% against Guard damage = 7.5% x weapon skill / 350

Combination of Block and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt against hits = (1 - (1-block%)(1-parry/dodge/disrupt%)) x 100%

The attacker's main stat of str/int/bal is assumed to be 800.


For an s/b tank, base evasion stats will be:
Block% = 8.9%
Block% against Guard damage = 20.4%
Parry% = 2.8%
Parry% against Guard damage = 6.4%
Dodge% = 2.1%
Disrupt% = 0.9%
Combined block/parry against frontal melee attacks = 11.4%
Combined block/dodge against frontal ranged attacks = 10.8%
Combined block/disrupt against frontal ranged magic attacks = 9.7%
Combined block/parry against Guard damage = 24.6%


For a 2H tank, base evasion stats will be:
Parry% = 2.8%
Dodge% = 2.1%
Disrupt% = 0.9%
Parry against Guard damage = 6.4%

So at this point, the s/b tank obviously has better evasion stats. So I'm going to spend 40 renown points on improving the 2H tanks evasion stats so that they match or surpass the s/b's stats. 20 points spent on each of Reflexes and Deft Defender will give the 2H an extra 18% in parry, dodge, and disrupt. So their new stats will be:


For a 2H tank, boosted evasion stats will be:
Parry% = 20.8%
Dodge% = 20.1%
Disrupt% = 18.9%
Parry against Guard damage = 24.4%


Comparing these stats to the s/b tank's stats listed above, it can be seen that the 2H stats have now easily surpassed the s/b tank's stats.

So the s/b tank now needs extra defence to match the 2H's evasion stats. But they also need extra strength to match the 2H extra dps that was gained by equipping the 2H weapon. This extra dps is 74-51=23 points of weapon dps. This is equivalent to 115 points of strength when contributing to ability damage and 230 points of strength when contributing auto-attack damage. Overall, the s/b tank would need about 140 extra strength to match the extra weapon dps (also taking into account improved chance to bypass target's evasion stats). Spending 34 renown points on Might will give the s/b tank an extra 120 strength. this leaves it a bit short, but it will have to do.

Spending 34 renown points on strength leaves only 6 renown points for improving their evasion stats to match the 2H's boosted stats. Let's give them 4 bonus points so that they can buy the first 3 levels of Defender. This would give them an extra 6% Block. So the s/b tank's new evasion stats will be:


For an s/b tank, boosted evasion stats will be:
Block% = 14.9%
Block% against Guard damage = 26.4%
Parry% = 2.8%
Parry% against Guard damage = 6.4%
Dodge% = 2.1%
Disrupt% = 0.9%
Combined block/parry against frontal melee attacks = 17.3%
Combined block/dodge against frontal ranged attacks = 16.7%
Combined block/disrupt against frontal ranged magic attacks = 15.7%
Combined block/parry against Guard damage = 31.1%


Comparing the boosted stats of the s/b and 2H tanks, you can see that for builds balanced between dps and evasion, the s/b and 2H tank are fairly closely matched. The s/b tank takes less Guard damage but it receives more damage from all other sources. The dps capabilities of both tanks would be fairly well matched.

You can re-do the calculations for different combinations of stats and renown abilities, but the comparison doesn't really change. Choosing a shield doesn't automatically provide better survivability on its own if you want to match the 2H's dps. Any benefit of one choice over the other is going to come down to the abilities and tactics you choose to complement your dps and evasion stats, not from the stats themselves.

Its has never been nor ever will be about dmg with tanks, that is what we have real DD's for, tanks are their for utlity, CC, apply some pressure and to negate damage s that DD's can deal damage

A such there is no need to waste 34 pts on STR

Choosing a shield in every case bar IB and SM makes the tank better because they can provide more utility they they otherwise could in their 2H counter part, the first and formost being Hold The Line!, which benefits not only them but their whole party, long with access to a wide varierty of block unique abilites and tactics such as Dirty Tricks, spiteful slam, Destind for victory, and You sez me block dat?.

Furthermore are you factoring in many class unique tactics and attributes that increase defensive stats based on a shield? such as mixed defenses, good wif shield, gilded shield, shield mastery etc?

At the end of the day 2H tanks have parry for VS melee and dodge and disrupt SnB gets both of those and a 3 liar of defense from everything with block increasing their surviveablity whch is what is most important to tanks, the dmg increase from 2H weapons is in the gand scheme of things nothing to get excited over

TenTonHammer wrote: At the end of the day 2H tanks have parry for VS melee and dodge and disrupt SnB gets both of those and a 3 liar of defense from everything with block increasing their surviveablity whch is what is most important to tanks, the dmg increase from 2H weapons is in the gand scheme of things nothing to get excited over

The shield only increases survivability if you are also forfeiting dps.

The aim of the game is to kill the toons on the other side. So dps is utility.

While I like that you provided some math for us to work with, I think several assumptions you made are a bit weird.

1) SnB tanks "match" the damage of most 2H tanks because of their uptime, not because of their dps. You don't play SnB and spec 160 points into strength. You go for the same renown spec + block so you get more defense. You can guard your target longer. You can fight longer without disengaging => more uptime. More damage.

2) Guard damage. The majority of the damage you will recieve as a tank is guard damage unless you are fighting inexperienced players. As such getting high guard damage mitigation but "less mitigation otherwise" is completely fine and will make you more survivable in the long run.

3) You are using current equipment as a basis to form an argument that is supposed to present a general truth. The better gear gets, the higher Blockrates on shields becomes, thus the more durable SnB becomes.

4) Not all tank dps actually scales with Strenght/Weapon dps

In general many people agree that 2H is worthwhile when the guard damage mitigation is at acceptable levels while there is a distinct upside to using 2H. Like Cave In, WoDS, CD etc.

Shadowgurke wrote:While I like that you provided some math for us to work with, I think several assumptions you made are a bit weird.

1) SnB tanks "match" the damage of most 2H tanks because of their uptime, not because of their dps. You don't play SnB and spec 160 points into strength. You go for the same renown spec + block so you get more defense. You can guard your target longer. You can fight longer without disengaging => more uptime. More damage.

2) Guard damage. The majority of the damage you will recieve as a tank is guard damage unless you are fighting inexperienced players. As such getting high guard damage mitigation but "less mitigation otherwise" is completely fine and will make you more survivable in the long run.

3) You are using current equipment as a basis to form an argument that is supposed to present a general truth. The better gear gets, the higher Blockrates on shields becomes, thus the more durable SnB becomes.

4) Not all tank dps actually scales with Strenght/Weapon dps

In general many people agree that 2H is worthwhile when the guard damage mitigation is at acceptable levels while there is a distinct upside to using 2H. Like Cave In, WoDS, CD etc.

1) You already know that dps counts for more than overall damage. So I don't know why you are making this argument.

2) This is entirely situational. And the difference between Guard damage taken in the two builds isn't very large.

3) You might have noticed that I used only 800 for the attacker's main stat when making the calculations. As shield block ratings increase, so does the attacker's strength/int/bal. By the time that shields have 420 block Rating, the attacker's stats will be at the soft cap for str/int/bal.

The base block and parry rates don't really change much as new gear becomes available if attackers and defenders are at the same gear/renown rank. The only difference comes when the fight is between toons of different gear/rr.

4) I'm not really sure what you are saying here. All tanks' damage scales with strength, and that was the only comparison I made.

People are writing posts where they assume that the extra defence gained from equipping a shield automatically improves the tank. This simply isn't true. There is a trade-off in equipping a shield or going 2H. The point of the calculations is to show that the trade-off is fair one. You gain extra defence by equipping the shield, but that gain is balanced by the loss of dps. You gain extra dps by going 2H, but that gain is balanced by a reduction in defence. The point of the calculations was to show that a 2H tank and a s/b tank can achieve equivalent levels of dps and defence by spending roughly the same amount of renown points. That is what makes the exchange a fair one.

Annaise16 wrote:
The shield only increases survivability if you are also forfeiting dps.

The aim of the game is to kill the toons on the other side. So dps is utility.

So in your eyes the "extra dps" is not only equal to the things i listed before (DT, spiteful slam, HTL!, Destined for victory etc) but also holds the same value in group play?

TenTonHammer wrote:Its has never been nor ever will be about dmg with tanks, that is what we have real DD's for, tanks are their for utlity, CC, apply some pressure and to negate damage s that DD's can deal damage

A such there is no need to waste 34 pts on STR

Choosing a shield in every case bar IB and SM makes the tank better because they can provide more utility they they otherwise could in their 2H counter part, the first and formost being Hold The Line!, which benefits not only them but their whole party, long with access to a wide varierty of block unique abilites and tactics such as Dirty Tricks, spiteful slam, Destind for victory, and You sez me block dat?.

Furthermore are you factoring in many class unique tactics and attributes that increase defensive stats based on a shield? such as mixed defenses, good wif shield, gilded shield, shield mastery etc?

At the end of the day 2H tanks have parry for VS melee and dodge and disrupt SnB gets both of those and a 3 liar of defense from everything with block increasing their surviveablity whch is what is most important to tanks, the dmg increase from 2H weapons is in the gand scheme of things nothing to get excited over

It depends on what you are doing as well, like annaise said DPS is sort of utility.

In the current meta 6v6 melee (and thus physical damage) really reigns supreme and at most you will see one magic user in a 3-2-1 group. This means tanks which have naturally high armor can afford to go DPS in those situations unless they are losing too much utility, the BG is probably the prime example. Becuase they won't get punished for giving up defence until the meta gets flipped on it's head by balance changes.

But for large scale ORvR ya hold the line is invaluable and you are taking enough damage from aoe and **** to the point where shield is mandatory on virtually all classes but SM.


I also think BO/SM DPS comes pretty close to actual MDPS levels, if they had access to a 50% crit tactic then I bet they could pass off as MDPS.

Jaycub wrote:

TenTonHammer wrote:Its has never been nor ever will be about dmg with tanks, that is what we have real DD's for, tanks are their for utlity, CC, apply some pressure and to negate damage s that DD's can deal damage

A such there is no need to waste 34 pts on STR

Choosing a shield in every case bar IB and SM makes the tank better because they can provide more utility they they otherwise could in their 2H counter part, the first and formost being Hold The Line!, which benefits not only them but their whole party, long with access to a wide varierty of block unique abilites and tactics such as Dirty Tricks, spiteful slam, Destind for victory, and You sez me block dat?.

Furthermore are you factoring in many class unique tactics and attributes that increase defensive stats based on a shield? such as mixed defenses, good wif shield, gilded shield, shield mastery etc?

At the end of the day 2H tanks have parry for VS melee and dodge and disrupt SnB gets both of those and a 3 liar of defense from everything with block increasing their surviveablity whch is what is most important to tanks, the dmg increase from 2H weapons is in the gand scheme of things nothing to get excited over

It depends on what you are doing as well, like annaise said DPS is sort of utility.

In the current meta 6v6 melee (and thus physical damage) really reigns supreme and at most you will see one magic user in a 3-2-1 group. This means tanks which have naturally high armor can afford to go DPS in those situations unless they are losing too much utility, the BG is probably the prime example. Becuase they won't get punished for giving up defence until the meta gets flipped on it's head by balance changes.

But for large scale ORvR ya hold the line is invaluable and you are taking enough damage from aoe and **** to the point where shield is mandatory on virtually all classes but SM.


I also think BO/SM DPS comes pretty close to actual MDPS levels, if they had access to a 50% crit tactic then I bet they could pass off as MDPS.

Stacking parry and dodge/disrupt is as good a defence against aoe as stacking block.

TenTonHammer wrote:

Annaise16 wrote:
The shield only increases survivability if you are also forfeiting dps.

The aim of the game is to kill the toons on the other side. So dps is utility.

So in your eyes the "extra dps" is not only equal to the things i listed before (DT, spiteful slam, HTL!, Destined for victory etc) but also holds the same value in group play?

Lol. 2H tanks also get very good abilities that s/b tanks can't use. Why do you never mention Arcing Swing in the same sentence as Dirty Tricks? It's conceivably better than DT in many situations.

I know that you obsessed by the perceived superiority of s/b builds/specs. You really should try to work your way past this bias.

Annaise16 wrote: Stacking parry and dodge/disrupt is as good a defence against aoe as stacking block.

But as a 2H where can you readily get 45% dodge/disrupt w/ the side effect of 15% for your allies behind you? HoTL is amazing in the zerg v zerg warfare in ORvR. Not to mention milking out as much dps as you can get on your tanks is negligible at that scale compared to 6v6 where every little bit certainly counts.