[Swordmaster]Why are our tactics so bad?

[altharion1]

I'd like to see tactics that work with blade enchantments. Firstly i'd buff Phantom's blade to be a group absorb.

The first tactic in each of the trees could add a secondary effect to the relevant blade enchantment. By slotting the tactic from:
- Khaine; NB could add a 15% snare or 10% increased chance to be critically hit on the debuffed target.
- Vaul; PB could add +10% parry, dodge and disrupt to the group for 10s.
- Hoeth; HB could restore AP to the group over 10s or something.

Potent enchantments could then increase the base effect of the blade enchantments. Making NB debuff and buff more, PB absorb more and HB debuff more.

- Make one tactic a long range single target knockback.
- Lingering intimidation altered to just be a flat 10% reduction in crit chance.
- Blessings of Heaven could restore AP when striking the target instead of HP.
- We don't need Poised attacks when we have Discerning Offence. You could make Poised attacks make Improved and Perfect balance abilities have a 20% chance to interrupt the target.
- Dampening talon should really buff the effect of Dragons talon, rather than adding a secondary effect. This tactic could increase the effect of dragons talon to reduce targets out going damage to 60% rather than the standard 80% tooltip.

[th3gatekeeper]

Some tactics could be turned into risk-reward / build enablers, instead of just flat positive bonuses.

Would make it easier to balance them because you could turn tactics into something that only a particular build would benefit from, so you would never have universal must have tactics.

The only tactic I can think of in the game right now that sort of fits that bill is FO, but the bonus is pretty trash for what you lose. Risk-Reward things in games tend to have much higher risk than reward and that is good design IMO, but the problem with FO is that 15% increased damage is barely any more than most offensive tactics give, even less in some cases.

This is precisely what I have been saying... Focused Offense on all tanks is (IMO) a joke. You give up another buff (like Toughness for example) in order to slot it, it also reduces your armor by 33% to gain a mere 15% damage boost.

So in total you lose ~ 800 armor + 128 toughness for 15% more damage on an already low damage group (tanks). This feat could be a great way to add utility to the tank class. Heck maybe instead of just armor this could be something like:

"Reduces your resistances and armor by 20% but increases your damage by 30%". Now you will lose ~480 armor but also resistances but gain a much more appealing damage boost if a player wants to go this route. Other classes (like the AM) only lose 20% heal ability for 20% more damage.... So I am guessing this is supposed to mimic that but it just falls short as you give up A LOT for so little, AMs dont have to give up any defensive tools to gain 20% more damage, just makes their heals less....

Or another option:

"reduces your chance to block or Parry by 10%, increases damage by 30%" So it doesnt remove armor or resists, just block/parry %. Just spitting out ideas.

[TenTonHammer]

30% dmg increase for a 30% buff

hit like an mdps

die like one too

[th3gatekeeper]

I'm all ears if you think you have an answer to the ridiculous ease of playing KotBS and by extension Chosen, especially if you've got something you can do with the mechanic and the way the stat boosts it gives totally obscure some other buffs which affect the same stats.

So my main class has been a knight. I am 32/40 and have 5/5 duelist + just shy of 5/5 Dev set (so I have played him atleast a decent amount).

I almost didnt play the class when I was reading about aura "twisting" as it sounded extremely un-fun. After playing the class it is extremely dull right now as it doesnt really require much. I tried to make 2H work but you just dont do much damage. Ive played tank and while its useful for group play its REALLY not fun because you dont feel like you do anything but follow a person around on guard + buff everyone with auras + dirty tricks etc..

I think overall the issue is since its a passive mechanic, it doesnt take real "skill" to use them at all. There isnt any timing involved.

So my suggestion would be something more like this (as it just seems fun to me):
- Auras are still permanent, but now actually reduce over time. So for instance:

"Press the Attack":
Current: increase STR by 75 to allies in 100 feet, reduce STR of enemies in 30' by 75.

Proposed: Upon activation increases strength of all allies by 100 within 100 feet and reduce the strength of enemies within 30 feet by 100, Every 10 seconds this effect is reduced by 20%.

So now when its cast it provides 100 STR and removes 100 STR for 10 seconds, from seconds 11-20 its back at 80, from 21-30+ its down to 60 etc. Maybe with a minimum of 50 @ 31 seconds.

You can fiddle with the active times/benefits but remember Knight/Chosen have 3 auras so this would take the place of atleast 3 "encounters" every 10 seconds to keep maximum benefits up. I think adding some "scalability" to the auras would help.

Another way to potentially adjust these is lessen the benefits (cut them in half) for players outside 30 feet.

So the aura could read:
"Adds 75 STR to all party members within 30 feet, but only adds 25 STR to allies up to 100 feet" or something like that. Requires the Knight to be more "situationally aware" but this is probably less fun.

I would add to these comments though, to supplement my above comment about focused offense. Part of the reason tanks seem extremely dull (to me) is they dont offer much in the way of benefit except with passive buffs. So low damage, no heal depression or w.e...

So Focused Offense would be a good way to boost damage more making it seem more fun - like you help out attacking.

Maybe I am biased here but adjusting "taunt" so that it doesnt "come off" when you are hit 3x but rather just lasts for 10 seconds on a target would also be an additional way to make tanks feel they are adding more value.

Heck I would even go as far as to say "taunt" should reduce that opponents damage by say 15% and then gives you a 30% increase.

Possibly more "active utility" is what I would love to see. The SM, however, from what I have played so far, already has a lot of active management with stances, so possibly could provide group benefits to things like "Balanced Accuracy" in which is provides half its benefits to allies within 100 feet.

That alone would help match some of the other tank classes. You could buff Nature's blade to provide stolen stats for 20 seconds (up from 10) which would be a nice boost. @ 25% chance to apply, this would end up giving them "similar" benefits to allies as Knights/Chosen but require attacking and no choice on stats.

You would then have to look at slightly increasing Phantom's Blade and Heavens Blade to have more group utility. Heaveans Blade could "steal" resistances and give them to allies, but this would just be a "Gather Resolve" Equiv but less attractive...

Now im just throwing ideas around that may not be useful but those are a few thoughts if it helps...

[Azarael]

The problem with FO is that it's a pure playstyle shifter in a game based around the idea of tactics giving straight buffs or having a disadvantage which counterbalances an excellent buff. I would like to see pure playstyle shifting tactics kicked over to some other slot that we could repurpose (like Tome or Renown slots) so that they could be run while still being able to use a full range of buff tactics.

[th3gatekeeper]

The problem with FO is that it's a pure playstyle shifter in a game based around the idea of tactics giving straight buffs or having a disadvantage which counterbalances an excellent buff. I would like to see pure playstyle shifting tactics kicked over to some other slot that we could repurpose (like Tome or Renown slots) so that they could be run while still being able to use a full range of buff tactics.

So you want to remove F.O altogether then? I really like how F.O. offers both advantages and disadvantages. Using a tactic slot to completely change the focus of the character (in this case losing defense for offense).

I guess the issue with using renown points for this is would it be enough? If you can put points into STR and get X% damage increase then the flat damage % increase with a "con" would have to be atleast 2x the benefit of STR.

Currently other classes (like AM - I keep referencing this because its a decent example of options) have 3 fairly viable paths. Heal/Utility/Damage.

It seems tanks do not get a similar luxury in this game where they should have a Tank/Utility/Damage paths with corresponding tactics.

Maybe F.O. would be best modified so it replaces a tactic in the damage mastery paths for tanks (example being Conquest for Knights) and then beefed up a bit. This would actually potentially make Chosen/Knight slightly less attractive in group benefits (if it took the place of say Encouraged Aim and Crippling Strikes) Which provide crazy good utility.

So now its a build choice but atleast now a "tank" could say he wants to sacrifice his "defensive advantage" for some offensive capability and actually be somewhat of a "threat" in damage.

Crippling Strikes could be moved into the Path of Discord, while Encouraged aim can just be dropped as Knights already have Dirty Tricks - which IMO should "add" you into the benefit if you drop E.A.

[th3gatekeeper]

The problem with FO is that it's a pure playstyle shifter in a game based around the idea of tactics giving straight buffs or having a disadvantage which counterbalances an excellent buff. I would like to see pure playstyle shifting tactics kicked over to some other slot that we could repurpose (like Tome or Renown slots) so that they could be run while still being able to use a full range of buff tactics.

Az, are you thinking more along the lines of "Hardy Concessions"? "Damage you receive is reduced by 15 but damage you deal is reduced by 15% as well." but the opposite?

Because even adding something like this to renown, wouldnt that make it available for everyone to use who doesnt need the increase in damage?

As mentioned before, maybe F.O would be best suited as tactics in the Mastery Trees rather than given to all but maybe offer more offense ability with less "downside" than it currently does. To me, it just seems like it gives tanks the option of going more DPS focused if they want, you could even make F.O require a 2H - like Chosen and SM have feats that already do this.

[TenTonHammer]

What if FO replaced great weapon mastery in tank trees and great weapon mastery became a core tactic and the debuff was changed to a tough debuff and a block and parry debuff or something?

[TenTonHammer]

Don't know what would happen to classes without great weapon mastery though

[Azarael]

I'm not proposing making these renown abilities. I'm talking about the Renown Tactic and Tome Tactic slots.