So.. time to fix the WL?

[Luth]

"And? He has the incoming one, which is way more viable when trying to kill something. I can't see any argument here (not that i'm surprised...)"
I can't say it's more viable. I can say it's equal. Sure you will disagree with me and your Order friends will only support you. Not surprised also.

Aaaaaah, incoming and outgoing healdebuffs are equal... and who are "my order friends"?

"You mean higher than this? In case you didn't notice: the tactic has a very nice side effect and i think every WL would exchange his mastery 50% outgoing HD for a core 25% incoming HD + option for that tactic anytime. Again, no argument/point/whatever..."
Not higher, but still high for Marauder, who MUST spec points in 2nd tree to have +50% crits value, while some "poor" class has it as CORE tactic.
Also, there is only 3 slots for tactic now, and marauders, usually, do not have a place for that heal debuff tactic (especially, after it was nerfed)

I'm not further arguing on a WL topic about any marauder stuff and if he has too many BiS tactics to take the healdebuff tactic...

"And what has pounce to do with an incoming healdebuff (that was a major point of my post btw...). If pounce is too strong, it should get a cooldown or whatever. Reading comprehension etc..."
I suggested it long ago, but you and your Order friends was strongly disagree with me. Why you agreed now?
Also: "The Pounce was only mentioned, to show the illogicality/inconsistency of some arguments here"

I never disagreed to any pounce cooldown nor do i agree now with you (which is tbh not 100% objective, as it is mainly based on my personal disgust).
Just a quick search, just4you m8: Post 1, Post 2, Post 3
Btw, the sentence you stole doesn't make any sense when reading through this thread.

"Aaaah, the mighty high elf classes; in T4 every group should have at least two of them to be competitive. "
I will remeber about that classes until they are existing in the current state without same destro mirrors.
If it's not "1vs1", so why only Destro roamers/loners must be punished by facing that classes? Let Order roamers will be punished too. Isn't it fair?
I surely won't discuss here, why this game will never be balanced for/around 1vs1. Maybe the answer is hidden somewhere in your "mirror all classes" topic you created about a while ago.

You are trying to use WL not as he was mentioned.
Mentioned by whom? And who says that i try to use it like "that"?

His role is strong healers pressure.
Can i haz link pls?

WL is not a Slayer, do not even try to use WL like Slayer.
Wl has really strong base damage of abilities.
Thx for clarification m8, i really appreciate that.

Mara can't even be compared with WL here ><

Another note: The marauder was only mentioned, to show the illogicality/inconsistency of some arguments here. This was obviously not clear to everyone

You even stole the sentence and still didn't read it obviously. Just a hint: the one who started to compare the WL with the marauder wasn't me, it was "someone else" *winkwink*

[Annaise16]

@tesq, i wasn't taking anything you said out of context. I was simply pointing out that WH/WE can debuff heals on their enemies to around 25% and no one calls them OP. Therefore, i don't see any reason not to remove the positional requirement on Thin the Herd. It won't make WL OP. It's a 14 point skil ffs, those should be useful (and not trash like Waaagh, for example).

And once again, i'm NOT advocating for a inc HD for WL's.

The positional requirement for Thin the Herd has never been a problem because healers stand still for most of the time while healing. Healers have to do this because most heals have a cast time.

Shamans and zealots can cast some heals while kiting, but if so they won't be healing for much and WLs still have the option of using Charge to gain position to use Thin the Herd.

[SilverWF]

WL still too strong to get incoming healing debuff. Even moving current outgoing heal debuff to lower position in the tree will be too much.
Why:
1. Extremely strong base damage value of abilities.
2. Core crit.increase tactic. Only 3 classes has this: WL and Black Orc + Choppa and thier crit.tactic is 2 times weaker (25% vs 50%)
3. Tanks snare at melee-DPS. "Tanks" means duration of snare is longer than it's cooldown. Only one melee-DPS has it - WL. Extra snare from pet with duartion equal to cooldown.
4. Extreme high armor debuff in the 1st tree. Extra armor debuff from pet.
5. Pounce - cheap and non-CD gap closer. Only WL has such skill in the entire game. Absolutely cheating skill. Works at 65 ft range, that with "melee problem" means ~80ft
6. In addition to #5 WL has charge and snare/root immune skills (also as another melee-DPS)

I have no idea, why such monster must receive incoming heal debuff.

[Tesq]

@tesq, i wasn't taking anything you said out of context. I was simply pointing out that WH/WE can debuff heals on their enemies to around 25% and no one calls them OP. Therefore, i don't see any reason not to remove the positional requirement on Thin the Herd. It won't make WL OP. It's a 14 point skil ffs, those should be useful (and not trash like Waaagh, for example).

And once again, i'm NOT advocating for a inc HD for WL's.

sy so didn't feel like that, i agree to on the positional requirement anyway feel more like an optimization change rather than a goof fix anyway

[Luth]

Ok, the WL is fine as it is. You guys realised that it wouldn't have been impossible to spec for the healdebuff and into another path before T4 (no pounce, AA speed increase, lions fury and armor debuff)?

Hopefully soon(TM) the old T4 meta will hit the server in all it's glory. With all it's armor stacking, renown ability fun. The same 5-6 classes on each side over and over...
We will see how much of use a flying armor debuff will be then and if it's valueable to reserve a melee DD slot for it or if the position could be filled better with a different class.

WL "the monster"...this guy...

[Korhill]

I am really afraid of those People (like SilverWF) that keep Posting such xxxx comments and devs going to nerf a class.
There was once a situation were it looked like it and they were about to do that and Bretin jumped in and defended the WL and made a very good valid post.

@SilverWF Just curious. Whats your main?

[TenTonHammer]

Ok, the WL is fine as it is. You guys realised that it wouldn't have been impossible to spec for the healdebuff and into another path before T4 (no pounce, AA speed increase, lions fury and armor debuff)?

Hopefully soon(TM) the old T4 meta will hit the server in all it's glory. With all it's armor stacking, renown ability fun. The same 5-6 classes on each side over and over...
We will see how much of use a flying armor debuff will be then and if it's valueable to reserve a melee DD slot for it or if the position could be filled better with a different class.

WL "the monster"...this guy...

except the devs have already stated that they are going be looking into the armor stacking nature of t4 and stuff already

[Luth]

except the devs have already stated that they are going be looking into the armor stacking nature of t4 and stuff already

It was only stated by one dev afaik; but the team consists of more people, so it seems 95% of the staff members don't want to express their thoughts and opinions open in the forum (and when balance threads get spammed with "well thought high quality posts" like the ones from "youknowwho", that's no surprise).
There is also no official statement about this (like a dev letter or something that is clearly marked as non-opinion).

It's atm actually pretty unknown where this journey leads to.

[Landaren]

on another note, with pulling abilities working the way they do currently ignoring terrain features such as tree/wall/rocks/hillsides

Will Fetch begin ripping people from the center of the keep through the door/wall?

I feel it will be interesting to see how fetch will operate in RoR.

[Greatwarden]

WL still too strong to get incoming healing debuff. Even moving current outgoing heal debuff to lower position in the tree will be too much.
Why:
1. Extremely strong base damage value of abilities.
2. Core crit.increase tactic. Only 3 classes has this: WL and Black Orc + Choppa and thier crit.tactic is 2 times weaker (25% vs 50%)
3. Tanks snare at melee-DPS. "Tanks" means duration of snare is longer than it's cooldown. Only one melee-DPS has it - WL. Extra snare from pet with duartion equal to cooldown.
4. Extreme high armor debuff in the 1st tree. Extra armor debuff from pet.
5. Pounce - cheap and non-CD gap closer. Only WL has such skill in the entire game. Absolutely cheating skill. Works at 65 ft range, that with "melee problem" means ~80ft
6. In addition to #5 WL has charge and snare/root immune skills (also as another melee-DPS)

I have no idea, why such monster must receive incoming heal debuff.

I'm neutral about whether or not an incoming heal debuff is needed (I'd rather have guillotine ) but, adopting your numbering.

1. Yes the damage numbers are high but so is the AP cost and cool-down. I'm not saying it isn't a GOOD thing for WLs, but cons do exist. Also: Squishy. DPS. Class.

2. Please don't try to argue that WLs have better tactics than the average class. I would say that WLs have more dud tactics than most.

3. Defining a concept ("tank snares") JUST to say that only WLs and tanks have it seems like drawing a long bow. I can do the same and argue that only WEs have "throw snares" and only WHs have "bullet snares" which both have NO cool-downs. WLs snares EXIST sure, but they don't make the class OP.

4. Are you implying that the debuff shouldn't exist or is excessive? Maras (the quasi, semi, not-really mirror class) get the same thing. If you're implying that it's a good debuff then I certainly agree. If you're saying "it's a good debuff and WLs have too many debuffs already" then I will have to disagree.

5. Pounce is the class-defining ability. It will doubtless continued to be tinkered with the devs are happy with it (I would suggest 5 or 8s cooldown in return for increasing the range of Cleave Limb to 15 yards (or however long it needs to be in order for it fire off once you land)). It has nothing whatsoever to do with an argument about debuffs, though.

6. Yes, all MDPS classes get a charge and snare/root immunity abilities. Are you implying that WLs shouldn't? How does this contribute towards the buff/debuff argument?


The discussion is currently about adding an incoming heal debuff to WLs. Your position seems to be that WLs are OP and should receive no buffs ever. I respect that position but would encourage you to target your response to the topic of discussion rather than use a scatter-gun approach.