Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[Slowbro]

The sad part about this post is that WH has been nerfed into the ground for the past 2 years and if you lose against a WH it is an actual skill issue on your side.
While losing against a WE is a balance issue.

[3Form]

Late to the party but there is a strong contradiction between "the game is balanced around group play, not 1v1s" and then having a class whose only purpose seems to be to grief in 1v1.

And no, I don't think the answer is to make wh/we better at spamming aoe abilities in the blob. It's to acknowledge that small scale balance matters, even down to 1v1 level.

[rorswar]

Late to the party but there is a strong contradiction between "the game is balanced around group play, not 1v1s" and then having a class whose only purpose seems to be to grief in 1v1.

The whole argument about “the game isn’t balanced around 1v1” only gets thrown out by solo classes so they can keep their crutches.

The argument may have been true for WAR, but RoR is most of the time a low pop server where 1v1 balance matters massively.

[nocturnalguest]

P.S. No WE is not the only thing imbalanced in the game, looking at DPS runepriests for example its things the devs should prioritize as well, but this thread is about the WE/WH.

Farrul, i have no doubt you have more then enough experience in roaming. But why is it always all about this godforsaken roaming meta and always demands for nerfs for what killed someone? Not even a sign or mention of group play or how anything may affect it. Why any topic on forum is about solo play is just damn beyond me... Absolutely same 10 folks in each solo topic...

WE dies? Yes, it dies
Does WE autowin carried by spec? No, it demands more then spec
Are there classes who have more chances to kill WE then vice versa? Yes, there are
WE is OP in group play? No, its not

I get the point of "fairness", but by same logic balance devs you are refering to nerfed Heavy Blow. Happy?

DPS healers reigning surpeme is no surprise, its a clear consequence of no changes done to increase selfsustains on classes (while WE kept completely outliner tactic, im well surprised its not "adjusted" yet).

If you are so into "The Absolute Justice" then where are WL nerfs, Mara nerfs, kotbs/chosen nerfs, BO/IB/SM nerfs, why such half measures? AoE WL "overperforms" just like slayer "was", ST WL is OP too, mara is literally S++ tier for group play, kotbs/chosen are both overloaded with utility, BO/IB/SM provide insane fishing utility and IB being unkillable on top of that. Nerf it all. So many things are so OP and fun, need lesser fun. DPS RP is actually comletely fine in group play.

Yes, WE has changed. Yes, double jump is debatable change, clear they tried to provide some gap closers with weird thoughts in mind (aka "lore", like WH has pistol so here you go with ranged attack, WE leap cause cinematics), yes, absorb tactic is by numbers an outliner, yes, stealth is stealth.

Gameplay reality is however not as you guys paint it. Its rarely an ideal spot, WE/WH are still dont ignore objectives&terrain, and they are still both beatable. They can get caught offguard just like anyone else, they can be forced into bad match up, they like any other class have CDs and there are people who play them who do mistakes. They, just like everyone else can get overrun by warbands, champed, cc'ed and killed within knockdown/punt.

All the arguments here about people being farmed en mass in oRvR are just not valid. No balance change ever affected that, ive leveled WH last, it was like 2021, and i was always focusing into killing afkers, whoever stayed at keep, stranglers etc. I was specifically looking into killing easiest targets to level up. And it has been always like this - you either go roam fully decked, pot stacked (which i was on WH since i left t1) properly built or you are just a renown pinata.

If someone who just cracked cold beer, joined pug WB, left warcramp alone and stopped cause got called by wife/had to let the dog in/out or something else died by WE/WH its no big deal. Those who are into more then that shall have no problems with WE/WH. Like, im completely sure you yourself either kill them while you roam or at least 50/50.

Whole this "Balance Justice Honour" crusade is naive, childish stuff. Also, nobody cares, especially from balance group. They need no forums to make changes and have their own vision you may not affect anyhow.

[Sever1n]

Again this not solo game crap. Pathetic exuse to not finally sit and fix toxic part of game. And look what we playing, hordes of noobs dont understanding even a part if this "uniq vision" blobing 24/7 and coz they afraid to met "meta" abusers, and i dont blame them. Specs that abuse gaps in balance and investing hard into def and have infinte damage shouldnt be viable, but instead we have health tanks with infinite sustaine and ton of no stop magick damage. And some people still dare to say that this crap shouldnt be looked on because "insert random crap reason". Balancing overperforming and toxic parts of class balance in all aspects of game is top priority in mmos. People who take full group even to take **** are not priority and gameplay shouldnt be based around their comfort. Smallscale matters and it matters a lot for people who dont want to spend 24/7 in wb groups, but talking their problems is nothing, that their needs are nothing, that they dint need balance in small scale is peak arrogance. And look where we are, blobs between warcamps that sucking every last part of fun in this game. Thats your "solo game doesn't matter" and i forever curse those who spread this poison into devs heads.

Make viable smallscale builds for all classes or remove balance violations like rp we tanking options from existence. As i mention earlier, game dont have balance atm, it have foodchain, and i pity those whos on bottom.

[salazarn]

The sad part about this post is that WH has been nerfed into the ground for the past 2 years and if you lose against a WH it is an actual skill issue on your side.
While losing against a WE is a balance issue.

If tank welf was nerfed it would be a big start. Getting 1 shot by dps welf is actually not so annoying when they take dmg back

[Krima]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

How is it stronger? Does WH have Pounce? No, WH has ranged attacks, which is why WE got Pounce. WE lost all range on their finishers, so they were given Pounce instead.. Does WH have 2 x Pounce? Does WH have insane lifesteal build with WB that escapes through 5 people and survives to tell the tale, 600/3 absorb tactic? Yes, bullets actually heal more than kisses when spamming finishers, and they have a guaranteed proc on TBP with a Flowing Accusation or Prolonged Confession build + RB.. Does WH neglect Weapon skill itemization and still do insane armor ignoring DPS? Yes, Burn Armor, Torment, and Seeker's Triumph (an OP sleeper tactic that gives Seeker's Blade 50% armor penetration and makes it undefendable on a 5-second cooldown!). cooldown!! Does WH put a wound debuff on the target and easily another weapon skill/toughness debuff without having to spec much into the tree? Those are unique WE abilities, just like Seeker's Blade and Incendiary Shot are unique WH abilities


I'm looking at tactics Swift Movements, if feinted position still grants frontal armor pierce on Agonizing wounds, then this tactic is just so completely OP. What the hell were the devs thinking here. Again was that a bug or a feature? It has been like that for 20 years, lmao. Not a single WE uses that skill. It's just not that good, but sure... let's cry about that.

WH has currently one thing which makes the fotm play it, 1 it can stealth hence the best class to avoid/gank/ fight back vs the WE swarms of fotm. 2 it has atonoment which is indeed an overtuned tactic. WH deserves atonment nerf. WE deserves several nerfs because its toolkit and utility is currently busted since the December MDPS WE buff patch.

Oh so you cannot kill the toughest snb tank in the game who stacks 1050 toughness, reflects build with 50% block and vigilance, easily ? Hence WE is not OP i see, nice logic. . White Lion? Bugged pet class which yes has tools to handle WE, could be said to be overtuned in some regards but most importantly has nowhere near the presence of roaming, solo WE's simply because it lacks stealth, can easily be targeted and killed by roamers , 6 mans, wbs unlike the WE, which has all the tools in the box. You'll see one Def WL waiting in some corner of Praag for a duel/ambush/ fight to happen, meanwhile WE gank squads are farming people outside the WC area, go figure.

Listen i get nobody wants to be nerfed, but to claim WE isn't overtuned atm despite the 2 x pounce, stealth ( the ultimate gap closer) even snare armor pierce opener that crits for 3.5 ( combined) is just a ridiculous statement. WE deserves from a balance point of view a few well placed ''adjustments'' and everyone knows this, including yourself.

[Grafzahl1111]

You can't complain about WE without complaining about WH, which is stronger. There has been an influx of new player over the past year + with more being on order and a lot are going to the forums when they die to a WE when they were out of position. None of those things you mention are as overdone as anything on WH. The wounds debuff is needed to kill endgame healers. The absorb is 1/2 of the anti-thesis to the WH's Repel Blasphemy and overturned Atonement tactic (possible the most op tactic in RoR) and is one of the things that lets WE compete against OP tanks like Kotbs or even WL's. Your complaint here is a confusion with the games def/offense scaling. The tactic isn't too strong and only works when critically hit. Also, "defense spec" almost always uses offensive aspects like offensive tactics, magic damage stacks or strength stacking. All magic damages have a lower difference in resist cap. Not just WE. Double leap? Most ranged healer dps have multiple tools to cc and hit from 100ft. True ranged classes have not yet been overhauled. Keep that in mind.

How is it stronger? Does WH have Pounce? No, WH has ranged attacks, which is why WE got Pounce. WE lost all range on their finishers, so they were given Pounce instead.. Does WH have 2 x Pounce? Does WH have insane lifesteal build with WB that escapes through 5 people and survives to tell the tale, 600/3 absorb tactic? Yes, bullets actually heal more than kisses when spamming finishers, and they have a guaranteed proc on TBP with a Flowing Accusation or Prolonged Confession build + RB.. Does WH neglect Weapon skill itemization and still do insane armor ignoring DPS? Yes, Burn Armor, Torment, and Seeker's Triumph (an OP sleeper tactic that gives Seeker's Blade 50% armor penetration and makes it undefendable on a 5-second cooldown!). cooldown!! Does WH put a wound debuff on the target and easily another weapon skill/toughness debuff without having to spec much into the tree? Those are unique WE abilities, just like Seeker's Blade and Incendiary Shot are unique WH abilities


I'm looking at tactics Swift Movements, if feinted position still grants frontal armor pierce on Agonizing wounds, then this tactic is just so completely OP. What the hell were the devs thinking here. Again was that a bug or a feature? It has been like that for 20 years, lmao. Not a single WE uses that skill. It's just not that good, but sure... let's cry about that.

WH has currently one thing which makes the fotm play it, 1 it can stealth hence the best class to avoid/gank/ fight back vs the WE swarms of fotm. 2 it has atonoment which is indeed an overtuned tactic. WH deserves atonment nerf. WE deserves several nerfs because its toolkit and utility is currently busted since the December MDPS WE buff patch.

Oh so you cannot kill the toughest snb tank in the game who stacks 1050 toughness, reflects build with 50% block and vigilance, easily ? Hence WE is not OP i see, nice logic. . White Lion? Bugged pet class which yes has tools to handle WE, could be said to be overtuned in some regards but most importantly has nowhere near the presence of roaming, solo WE's simply because it lacks stealth, can easily be targeted and killed by roamers , 6 mans, wbs unlike the WE, which has all the tools in the box. You'll see one Def WL waiting in some corner of Praag for a duel/ambush/ fight to happen, meanwhile WE gank squads are farming people outside the WC area, go figure.

Listen i get nobody wants to be nerfed, but to claim WE isn't overtuned atm despite the 2 x pounce, stealth ( the ultimate gap closer) even snare armor pierce opener that crits for 3.5 ( combined) is just a ridiculous statement. WE deserves from a balance point of view a few well placed ''adjustments'' and everyone knows this, including yourself.

Apparently u dont play WH:
-There ist definitely no INSANE magic damage when using burn armor or something if playing those WH specs
- bullets heal more, yeah but def WE use autoattack tactics and fast weapons even if those weapons are lowlevel, so heal much more in same time than using bullets
-WH range attacks are so lame and never comparable to double pounces
-and seekers blade tactics isnt used at all or very seldom

IMO
So WH must be tuned to have more options, there is only 1 viable spec, with variable rr and equips
WE has to be nerfded or tuned indeed, and atm WE has at least 3 viable specs, reg-def, off and ss/wb, with all great dps and Utility, some tuning is absolute must have
BUT pls let both classes alive as stealth classes with burst dps, there is no reason to nerf them into the ground or delete them,
I agree, here are many ppl who dont know playing solo roaming

[Slowbro]

Double pounce is much better than the one semi ranged builder an the few semi ranged finishers wh have, because for most wh skills and auto attacks you still need to get in melee range. Pounce brings WE in range for all their skills and auto attacks. Also the ranged stuff on wh is very easy to parry / block and you can't circle target properly on range.
And for the people who argue with repel blasphemy Vs pounce: pounce is given for free and for RP you must spec midway into left tree and it can be cleansed.

[eigner93]

Everybody know's WE is the most op classes in the game got way too much utility it's ridiculous. They should be more like assasins not regen tanky high mobility class. Like in live they would do insane dmg but could not instantly stealth and pounce plus all the other tools. I preffer to die quickly than seeing a WE escaping a 6man wacking her.

Exactly, i could not fathom a honest person , that plays and knows many classes not to consider WE to be on a efficient level Crack for small scale roaming. I mean its so obvious it should not have to be mentioned. Yet the WE players argue, for the sake of it.

I do not have an agenda to nerf WE, i just want them to be balanced and stop having these insane tools which they do not need to be a good and strong class, starting with the 2 x pounce thing which was absolutely not needed addition ( looking at you RoR balance team developers, try to realize the game is more outside of your BloB vs Blob balance vision please)

P.S. No WE is not the only thing imbalanced in the game, looking at DPS runepriests for example its things the devs should prioritize as well, but this thread is about the WE/WH.

There are some silly post like this one or good ones highlighting the actual problems. Obviously some people have agenda against WE/WH and wants them to be destroyed by the nerfhammer, however many of us just want a balanced classes or changes that make sense, but obviously the WE community (they seem much bigger based on the population numbers and their forum activity) immediately swarms every post denying reason and logic. Some saying WE actually suffered a huge nerf in the recent mdps patch.

Tell me why a class needs an other jump if they have acess to perma 65ft slow if played right, stealth, kd, disarm, silence, stagger, jump with slow.

Why witchbrew uptime is a minute when you unload the 6 attacks in an absolute maximum of 10 seconds. Meaning they start the fight many times with a full witchbrew because they were previously in combat or just killed a mob to get witchbrew. Especially when they have the means to actually start the fight, get witchbrew, reset and start again?

Why does a naked dps class has access to the best absorb tactic that has more absorb than tank ones?

Since every class can get so much access to huge amount of regen and ways to be built tanky, why does a class with absorb/selfheal has access to such high base magic damage spells, especially when they also have access to armor ignoring spells.

Its tiring that some people defend wes the same way wl players or shamans/am were defending their classes before without seeing the bigger picture. Runepriests/zealots will get in the same position as wes are now with these posts eventually.

I feel like WH community is not as delulu as the WE one. I believe there is a general acceptance that WHs were actually buffed.They are not as popular as their naked counterparts according to the numbers. However that doesnt mean that some wh assets should not be nerfed or adjusted.