Return of Reckoning

Faction69 wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 3:16 am

Spoiler:

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone

WE wins every fight by default

the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds

Stinksuit wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 6:12 am Im not really sure why you seem to be so defensive about this subject? For the most part it seems that people are having quite a good conversation about this (I'm actually surprised it has stayed this civil). As was mentioned above. If it bothers you so much, well maybe you shouldn't read the thread..

nocturnalguest wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:02 am

Faction69 wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 3:16 am

Spoiler:

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

Nope

But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone

WE wins every fight by default

the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds

Not true, ive send proves already. 5 times to be accurate.

Real deliberate tl;dr of this thread is:
- items have nothing to do with issues raised;
- issues should be solved in DPS rework, its classes to be changed not items.

sharpblader wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:48 am

Stinksuit wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 6:12 am Im not really sure why you seem to be so defensive about this subject? For the most part it seems that people are having quite a good conversation about this (I'm actually surprised it has stayed this civil). As was mentioned above. If it bothers you so much, well maybe you shouldn't read the thread..

In most cases this is due to complainants losing to a regen build, making a regen build themselves, tasting a win which make them feel invincible, and then getting defensive when other people talk about removing their means to that crutch.

I don't blame them.

Lately, PvP has become very hateful. On both Order and Destro. People will emote, troll, grief and corpse jump when they kill an enemy. This pushes solo and small scale players to opt the most effective ways to survive and kill. Interestingly enough, the very community that hates on these "OP" builds leads to their popularity. Then, when they die to these builds, they add more hate to the fire, creating a vicious cycle which I believe is intended as per the grand design of this game.

Coming back to the discussion on the grimshimmer pieces, let's put down some numbers for all the common sources of regen:
1. Grimshimmer Chest X1 : 184hp/4 sec
2. Fleshrender Rings x3: 120hp/4 sec (not 4 because of sent/vict ring)
3. Regeneration III (Renown): 140hp/4 sec
4. Pocket Item x1: 80hp/4 sec
5. Regen Potion: 80hp/4 sec
6. Regeneration of the Sentinel talisman: 72hp/4 sec

This totals 676hp/4 sec which is 169 hp each second. Note that these are ONLY the common sources that anyone can use, this can be further increased from other class specific items like boots, shoulder, helmet, etc. but anyone running this much regen loses too much offensive capability, and these builds are mostly good against others that have 0 sustain.

Even if Grimshimmer chest is completely removed, it still leaves 492hp/4 sec which is 123 hp each second which is more than enough. This means that with small tweaks, regen builds will still show similar performance.

Now, if we completely remove regen from the equation, this will lead to a class meta shift because regen is a major pillar of health recovery for some classes and archetypes. I will elaborate:

Sources of Health Recovery:
1. Direct Healing: High amounts of health recovery but requires GCDs or casting, with no offense being done in the same time. Can be countered by Heal Debuffs and interrupts.
2. Life Taps: Moderate to high health recovery. Abilities that deal damage and heal the user at the same time. Can be countered by Block/Parry/Disrupt, absorbs or interrupts.
3. Regen: Low health recovery. Can be countered only by increasing DPS by 100-180 per second (depending on how much regen the target is running), which is not much honestly and the core reason why regen alone is not enough to survive.

Consequently, classes with access to direct healing and life taps, and those that have enough dps/mitigation against them would dominate the solo meta. I can see a future where forum posts would call for heavily nerfing life taps and tactics such as divine fury. They will also call for reducing efficacy of heal debuffs and complain about too much Block/Parry/Disrupt (we are getting here soon btw).

To conclude, contrary to what most people believe, I believe regen increases build variety and ways to spec out your class outside the usual RvR/SC specs. The actual problem lies with certain classes being able to do more damage than others while being "tanky" at the same time, but I don't believe they are invincible when they choose to fight. Remember, running away is a loss

Personally, I wouldn't mind regen being removed, it will only impact a niche, albeit a super fun, gamemode. But it won't solve the issue of people believing that there are OP builds in 1v1.

Stinksuit wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:56 am I feel like regen WE is one of those classes that can utilise regen and defensives to the maximum.

Generally how do you counter regen? Well you burst super high so regen cannot even tick. (Same way you deal with hybrid healers, WL by far the worst match up for my dps zeal).

I am not gonna go super in depth on regen WE because Ive never played my WE as one so correct me if im wrong about something

Regen WE main dmg comes from witchbrew which only scales from main stat so you basically dont need to spec into crit at all which is really expensive stat to get to begin with.

Secondly the absorb when WE receives crit means you also dont need to spec heavily into anti crit, which again is quite expensive stat to get xD

Thirdly the changes to defensive stats and also the fact that parry, dodge and disrupt are all cheap to get and being able to only bypass maximum half of those stats make regen WE just really defensive making the regen tick often times in fights.

In short the counter to regen specs gets countered by the fact that WE can spec heavily into defensive stats without losing too much dmg since main dmg only requires str.

Slightly off topic, but I've said to some friends that I would like witchbrew to receive a change where its possible to crit with wb procs but the base dmg and scaling would be scaled down.

nocturnalguest wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:02 amNot true, ive send proves already. 5 times to be accurate.

Real deliberate tl;dr of this thread is:
- items have nothing to do with issues raised;
- issues should be solved in DPS rework, its classes to be changed not items.

Faction69 wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 3:16 amThe question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

Farrul wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:33 am

nocturnalguest wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:02 amNot true, ive send proves already. 5 times to be accurate.

Real deliberate tl;dr of this thread is:
- items have nothing to do with issues raised;
- issues should be solved in DPS rework, its classes to be changed not items.

This is true, if a class benefits too much from Regen, it's the class that should change. Not the regen items per se.

Hence, a universal nerf of regen items as some have suggested, is a terrible idea.

Faction69 wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 3:16 amThe question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

Yes regen must be protected as it serves an important function in the small scale balancing between classes, as i explained a few pages back in my post. It's not a difficult thing to grasp if one takes into consideration how each class role interacts with another.

Reminder: If regen is nerfed/removed etc. Then you would have a balance nightmare in the small scale were the obnoxious RDPS/DOT/Healer classes would reign supreme even more than they currently do.

I.e Regen is primarily a tool to counter Dots, since classes with Dots( or hots) are generally overpowered in most mmo' games in the small scale. Regen enables more classes to have a fighting chance.

The downside is the ''deftard'' builds, but these generally have low DPS and as such are not a problem. There are a few excetions as been mentioned, but then regen per se isn't the issue but the specific class needs to be looked at. If it benefits too much from the stat.

SuperStar wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 5:08 am To Stinky:
LOL

The dps zealot is bothered when someone heals themselves in 1v1.

Does it really bother you that people heal themselves? You, who plays with dps zealot?

Tell me, don't you heal yourself by accident?

Don't you use tri potions? Don't you have a pocket item with 80hp/4sec?

What's going on in this thread is shameful.

sharpblader wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 7:48 am

Stinksuit wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 6:12 am Im not really sure why you seem to be so defensive about this subject? For the most part it seems that people are having quite a good conversation about this (I'm actually surprised it has stayed this civil). As was mentioned above. If it bothers you so much, well maybe you shouldn't read the thread..

In most cases this is due to complainants losing to a regen build, making a regen build themselves, tasting a win which make them feel invincible, and then getting defensive when other people talk about removing their means to that crutch.

I don't blame them.

Lately, PvP has become very hateful. On both Order and Destro. People will emote, troll, grief and corpse jump when they kill an enemy. This pushes solo and small scale players to opt the most effective ways to survive and kill. Interestingly enough, the very community that hates on these "OP" builds leads to their popularity. Then, when they die to these builds, they add more hate to the fire, creating a vicious cycle which I believe is intended as per the grand design of this game.

Coming back to the discussion on the grimshimmer pieces, let's put down some numbers for all the common sources of regen:
1. Grimshimmer Chest X1 : 184hp/4 sec
2. Fleshrender Rings x3: 120hp/4 sec (not 4 because of sent/vict ring)
3. Regeneration III (Renown): 140hp/4 sec
4. Pocket Item x1: 80hp/4 sec
5. Regen Potion: 80hp/4 sec
6. Regeneration of the Sentinel talisman: 72hp/4 sec

This totals 676hp/4 sec which is 169 hp each second. Note that these are ONLY the common sources that anyone can use, this can be further increased from other class specific items like boots, shoulder, helmet, etc. but anyone running this much regen loses too much offensive capability, and these builds are mostly good against others that have 0 sustain.

Even if Grimshimmer chest is completely removed, it still leaves 492hp/4 sec which is 123 hp each second which is more than enough. This means that with small tweaks, regen builds will still show similar performance.

Now, if we completely remove regen from the equation, this will lead to a class meta shift because regen is a major pillar of health recovery for some classes and archetypes. I will elaborate:

Sources of Health Recovery:
1. Direct Healing: High amounts of health recovery but requires GCDs or casting, with no offense being done in the same time. Can be countered by Heal Debuffs and interrupts.
2. Life Taps: Moderate to high health recovery. Abilities that deal damage and heal the user at the same time. Can be countered by Block/Parry/Disrupt, absorbs or interrupts.
3. Regen: Low health recovery. Can be countered only by increasing DPS by 100-180 per second (depending on how much regen the target is running), which is not much honestly and the core reason why regen alone is not enough to survive.

Consequently, classes with access to direct healing and life taps, and those that have enough dps/mitigation against them would dominate the solo meta. I can see a future where forum posts would call for heavily nerfing life taps and tactics such as divine fury. They will also call for reducing efficacy of heal debuffs and complain about too much Block/Parry/Disrupt (we are getting here soon btw).

To conclude, contrary to what most people believe, I believe regen increases build variety and ways to spec out your class outside the usual RvR/SC specs. The actual problem lies with certain classes being able to do more damage than others while being "tanky" at the same time, but I don't believe they are invincible when they choose to fight. Remember, running away is a loss

Personally, I wouldn't mind regen being removed, it will only impact a niche, albeit a super fun, gamemode. But it won't solve the issue of people believing that there are OP builds in 1v1.