Return of Reckoning

City = zerging lol
Solo pugs deserve to be farmed honestly.

billyk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:28 pm

TreefAM wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:29 pm I love how "destro classes stronger than order and destro always zergs" but IC is constantly on 1 star.
I guess when order takes empty keeps it's just pure skill )

The empty keeps are a result of the recent changes. Also, again, Warhammer doesn't need skill. If you don't keyboard turn and have a good rotation, the rest is gear and tactics.

City is another good example for a zerg-heavy scenario btw, hence why Destro usually wins cities. Better classes and better synergy between classes = better zerg.

Most mirrors are in Order favor i.e. Slayer, Knight, WP, BW, WL are all stronger in their given role than their Destro counterpart and they also happen to be the aoe meta making for very strong groups. You should play both sides to get a good perspective tbh.

Rekoom wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:44 pm

billyk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:28 pm

TreefAM wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:29 pm I love how "destro classes stronger than order and destro always zergs" but IC is constantly on 1 star.
I guess when order takes empty keeps it's just pure skill )

The empty keeps are a result of the recent changes. Also, again, Warhammer doesn't need skill. If you don't keyboard turn and have a good rotation, the rest is gear and tactics.

City is another good example for a zerg-heavy scenario btw, hence why Destro usually wins cities. Better classes and better synergy between classes = better zerg.

Most mirrors are in Order favor i.e. Slayer, Knight, WP, BW, WL are all stronger in their given role than their Destro counterpart and they also happen to be the aoe meta making for very strong groups. You should play both sides to get a good perspective tbh.

Being new I've heard this toss around a lot. Some say Destro has better mirrors other say Order does. It seems to be a huge toss up. The one thing BOTH SIDES seem to agree on is that BW is better than Sorc.

Renown rank and gear make the difference in most scenarios. Same goes for cities. Weak links have a much higher negative effect than most assume. Especially when it is a weak class like SW with poor renown, ppl can doom their whole team regardless of mirrors and before you even get to talking about meta.

Its about getting the best 24 men you can compared to the 24 on the other side. Hence why pugs are so pathetic, its the poor class, poor gear, poor renown rank trifecta.

CountTalabecland wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:13 pm Renown rank and gear make the difference in most scenarios. Same goes for cities. Weak links have a much higher negative effect than most assume. Especially when it is a weak class like SW with poor renown, ppl can doom their whole team regardless of mirrors and before you even get to talking about meta.

Its about getting the best 24 men you can compared to the 24 on the other side. Hence why pugs are so pathetic, its the poor class, poor gear, poor renown rank trifecta.

When you say poor class. Do you mean poor class team/warband makeup, or do you mean certain classes are poor in general on both sides? If so then which do you consider "poor" out of curiosity?

xruptor wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:21 pm

CountTalabecland wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:13 pm Renown rank and gear make the difference in most scenarios. Same goes for cities. Weak links have a much higher negative effect than most assume. Especially when it is a weak class like SW with poor renown, ppl can doom their whole team regardless of mirrors and before you even get to talking about meta.

Its about getting the best 24 men you can compared to the 24 on the other side. Hence why pugs are so pathetic, its the poor class, poor gear, poor renown rank trifecta.

When you say poor class. Do you mean poor class team/warband makeup, or do you mean certain classes are poor in general on both sides? If so then which do you consider "poor" out of curiosity?

Comp. Every class has a place in a WB, but some you only want 1 of. Nobody wants a ton of Magus/Engis but 1 in the WB is very good to have. Same thing with WE/WH, etc...

xruptor wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:47 pm

Rekoom wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:44 pm

billyk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:28 pm
The empty keeps are a result of the recent changes. Also, again, Warhammer doesn't need skill. If you don't keyboard turn and have a good rotation, the rest is gear and tactics.

City is another good example for a zerg-heavy scenario btw, hence why Destro usually wins cities. Better classes and better synergy between classes = better zerg.

Most mirrors are in Order favor i.e. Slayer, Knight, WP, BW, WL are all stronger in their given role than their Destro counterpart and they also happen to be the aoe meta making for very strong groups. You should play both sides to get a good perspective tbh.

Being new I've heard this toss around a lot. Some say Destro has better mirrors other say Order does. It seems to be a huge toss up. The one thing BOTH SIDES seem to agree on is that BW is better than Sorc.

It's not much of a toss up really imo but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Slayer is 100% better at melting a front line than Choppa is. Order complains about GTDC all the time because it disrupts them but that's just what it is, a disruption. It doesn't help you mow down an entire frontline of tanks and mDPS who suddenly have no block, no parry and take all guard damage while having increased cooldowns. Of course you can cleanse Impending Doom, shatter Rampage and use Chop Fasta/Waagh to compensate for Shatter Limbs but the matter of fact is that it is very hard to execute all of these 3 things before you melt and needs a lot of coordination while Order just has to group up and press buttons. They do not get punished for balling up as much as Destro does.

Pair that with the very defensive KotBS to support the Slayers and aoe snare everyone and super tanky WP as well as the superior AoE of the BW and you have a winning comp.

WL and Mara/mSH is maybe a little more equal but nothing bullies Sorcs, Shammies and other healers like a WL because they cannot be kited and their burst is top notch so they synergize very well with the order melee train. mSH is a good class to bully healers because of their mobility and cooldown increasers as well but they do not get the WL burst so they do not wreak the havoc a couple WL does in your backlines.

Rekoom wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:44 pm

It's not much of a toss up really imo but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Slayer is 100% better at melting a front line than Choppa is. Order complains about GTDC all the time because it disrupts them but that's just what it is, a disruption. It doesn't help you mow down an entire frontline of tanks and mDPS who suddenly have no block, no parry and take all guard damage while having increased cooldowns. Of course you can cleanse Impending Doom, shatter Rampage and use Chop Fasta/Waagh to compensate for Shatter Limbs but the matter of fact is that it is very hard to execute all of these 3 things before you melt and needs a lot of coordination while Order just has to group up and press buttons. They do not get punished for balling up as much as Destro does.

Pair that with the very defensive KotBS to support the Slayers and aoe snare everyone and super tanky WP as well as the superior AoE of the BW and you have a winning comp.

WL and Mara/mSH is maybe a little more equal but nothing bullies Sorcs, Shammies and other healers like a WL because they cannot be kited and their burst is top notch so they synergize very well with the order melee train. mSH is a good class to bully healers because of their mobility and cooldown increasers as well but they do not get the WL burst so they do not wreak the havoc a couple WL does in your backlines.

I see. I suppose everyone has different opinions and there is no definite answer. I'm not saying you are wrong and I want to thank you for taking the time to give your feedback and opinion.

However, when I read posts such as yours and those throughout this thread (which at times can be a little discouraging to read as a Destro player), as a new player, the way I interpret all the threads in this post including yours is the following:
"Destruction is garbage, their classes/mirrors are garbage, destro group composition is garbage, Order players can roll their face on the keyboard because they require less effort than Destro players to perform their abilities, due to Destruction having terrible mirror abilities. So why even bother playing Destruction? Everyone should be just playing Order and just get it over it. Don't waste your time leveling a character on Destruction when everything is much more superior on the Order side."

I can't possibly see that being the case. I'm sure both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. When the developers put the classes together I'm sure they didn't think, "lets just crap on Destruction and give them all the useless stuff." If they did indeed favor Order then it could explain why the game suffered like it did. Again I'm only learning things as I go as I'm a relatively new player, but the community seems heavily divided on these things. I still think things are pretty even on both sides with some classes just being a bit better than others on their mirrored side. But I guess I'm just naive and only time will tell.

Don't assume the original devs made great decisions. Case in point is the gear power curve being way too punishing for newer players of WAR which the RoR devs have corrected, greatly improving the game as a result.

I'm not saying Destro has bad classes. Destro has more classes that work together well than Order does and Destro class distribution is more "meta" because SW/Legolas and Engineers popularity is actually making Order a disservice when the meta pushes for melee trains. You could say this is the reason why Destro wins more cities as they have more tanks and melee players in PuGs than Order does because there is no real Destro alternative to SW and Engies while playing a Marauder, Chosen, BO, BG or Choppa is usually very visually appealing compared to elves in dresses, feathery helmets and midgets.

However if we imagine an Order meta PuG WB (Slayers, WL, WP, KotBS yada yada) facing a meta Destro PuG WB, at equal gear & skill level I would be surprised if Order lost.

Rekoom wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:44 pm

billyk wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:28 pm

TreefAM wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:29 pm I love how "destro classes stronger than order and destro always zergs" but IC is constantly on 1 star.
I guess when order takes empty keeps it's just pure skill )

The empty keeps are a result of the recent changes. Also, again, Warhammer doesn't need skill. If you don't keyboard turn and have a good rotation, the rest is gear and tactics.

City is another good example for a zerg-heavy scenario btw, hence why Destro usually wins cities. Better classes and better synergy between classes = better zerg.

Most mirrors are in Order favor i.e. Slayer, Knight, WP, BW, WL are all stronger in their given role than their Destro counterpart and they also happen to be the aoe meta making for very strong groups. You should play both sides to get a good perspective tbh.

We could go at this class pair by class pair, but overall the order classes tend to be better at solo/smallman and Destro work better in group/warband comps, sorc and knight being the exceptions.