Return of Reckoning

Nidwin wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:24 am Wind of Insanity, for the ones wondering what that Zealot aoe punt is.

Not judging, just clarifying as even I had to wait for Xergon's runepriest group resurection skill comparaison

RoR.builders - Runepriest

Grimnir's Fury is that Group Rez.
And we tested it several times on the Dwarf Warband.
It was mediocre back then, and nowadays when your self rez runes are getting removed regularly it is even less usefull.

Back in the day it was blocked by its 30ft range and 5sec casttime.
So you never catched your whole group, maybe 2 or 3 other players and a 5sec are more then a good dps needs to kill a Runi that has self rezzed himself with 25% health.

As of this we only used it successful when being whiped and then selfrezzing us when the enemy was away to be again in the field. In any kind of combat situation it is useless. Also every halfbrained destro warband knows the trick and then simply waits on your bodies.

I'm getting trolled here, am I, right ?

Nidwin wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:10 am I'm getting trolled here, am I, right ?

Im as confused as you
This whole thread is a mystery but also a fun read

Not trolling or whining, just a question. As I don't play either BW or Sorc, can anyone here give me brief summary on BW undefendable skills? Is it only BW or Sorc has something similar? Was it always there or it was balancing decision?

Rockalypse wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:44 am Not trolling or whining, just a question. As I don't play either BW or Sorc, can anyone here give me brief summary on BW undefendable skills? Is it only BW or Sorc has something similar? Was it always there or it was balancing decision?

Besides morals, only skill that BW can have undefendable is Fireball and Pyroclastic Surgery, and that happens only when BW use Tactic, which any BW in WB should not ever use, because its not effective in compassion to other tactics.

Karast wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:09 am

Spoiler:

Aurandilaz wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:41 pm Now the funny thing is, Fluff posted another video of his warband action, from yesterday;
what we can conclude from this video found here - viewtopic.php?f=54&t=27979&p=335824#p335824

a)
you do not use HOLD THE LINE, which is something any normal warband tank would do to reduce enemy damage
instead, you choose to complain about BWs doing dmg, against which you could use HTL, but don't bother to

b) your Warband organization
2 maras, if they doing their task properly, will drain enough many BWs to ensure their M2 drop fails to reach critical mass or delay M2 drop by 10-20 sec, which allows Destro meanwhile to gather morale drop and win fight
3 shamans, when 1 is already too much
1 zealot, when preferably you would have 4 to give each party Ap, +25% heals and +1k armor
1 Squig, which doesn't do jackshit because no AOE spammer, and BadGas is countered by proper Order wb with 4 SMs
3 Sorcs, too little, too little bomb dmg having seen yesterdays killspam - either ensure they are all running proper AoE spec or lecture them about getting more dmg + kills, preferably you would run 4-6 Sorcs
0 dps Zealot, a class that would debuff enemy Corp and Armor resis (so your WE, SH, Maras would be like warm knives slicing through butter + increased tank dmg pressure), and so that your Sorcs corp dmg output increases massive when combined with BO corp debuff
While I love my WE, the class itself have 0 WB utility and dmg is far below Sorc dps, so no need to run those in WB.

c)
Now instead of fixing your own personal gameplay and playing like a tank should in warband, helping counter against BW dmg by proper HTL use...
Or instead of running a properly organized WB that utilized every trick and benefit known to Destro when it comes to butchering a BW heavy Order warband...
Your strategy to counter BW is to get them nerfed - that is the only viable dps class Order has for WB (Engi + Slayer are utility picks and cannot compete for DPS spots).
The alternative would be to "git gud" like Destro guilds have done in past giving them challenges but good chances of victory against organized BW-heavy Order guilds (Phalanx, TUP etc), but apparently that would be harder than to post your 7th "please let us talk about the problematic BWs killing me" nerf-BW thread.


As someone who plays both sides, with over dozen T4 chars, I have to say life on Destro is far easier when it comes to warbands, you are not required to run high Sorc number but can add classes like Magus or Mara or even a Choppa freely to the mix, and still have good chances of beating organized enemies.
And also, I would like to play non-BW classes in Order warbands, like my WL (RIP AOE spec) or maybe even my WH or Slayer - but as balance currently is and probably will be forever, it's recommended to not run less than 6-7 BWs for an organized Order wb (+ token Engi).


tdlr; pls use HTL

You make some good points but you miss a big thing I think.

If you want the view point of an order WB leader that plays in and out all the time the problem in their comp really is lack of zealot punt.

There is no counter for it. It completely shuts down keep assaults / defense and hunkering down in defensive positions. And whether you run AoE or Melee bomb on order all it takes 1-2 punt zealots to break your front line and give a sharp destro WB the time it needs to break you in a more 1 on 1 fight. You can try to focus the zealot, but if they hang close you won't do much without a hard ST ranged assist, which you won't have will full BW comp. Like when TUP came at us in Praag yesterday in the tunnel, or when a sneaky zealot used the zealot punt through the wall to disrupt the good funnel position. Order has to sit farther back off the door or you get chain punted through the wall when destro push in.

If you want to be successful with a destro WB get 2 punt zealots, and train them up. It will give you a huge advantage in every fight since it breaks front-line HTL / DPS, screws movement, and interrupts healers. If you try to pull dps off to focus them down you lose out on AoE, and they can just go tanky or hide inside.

If you are destro get zealot punts. That's all there is to it atm. Not a damn thing order can do about it unless if you are lucky enough to start the fight in the perfect situation, which rarely happens.

mmmmm Usually I wouldn't because people should figure things out but I will give you some tips how to counter

for me there is a couple possible ways to counter, but pulling them off in battle is another thing and alot harder. Setup is pretty important, most order guilds do not have a full warband premade so that is part of the problem im affraid. Location is also important.

Phalanx didn't have too much of a problem with it, because of their setup, they played high RDPS and Kite but also more importantly had good tanks that knew how to kite and knockback... its like a mix of roam and large scale. So if you have high ST/AOE RDPS not much of a problem, punt his guard, or punt him to the side and nuke.

Next counter if WL pulls worked properly, I would pull him to the side and ST destroy before he gets in position... when they are on the move they are pretty vunerable, there is brief windows of opportunities but usually order is routed/retreating too hard to fight back or focussed on other things. Or try yolo leap ST assist, but remember he's going to be protected a little bit if not over extending too much.

Third counter, I would say stop pushing into it, pull back a little, regroup bait it out... its that simple, don't keep doing same thing over and over... and if you let him get in between you without CCing (knight slotted knockback in particular) then its kinda your own fault... you need to dedicate resources to counter if you believe its such a key problem.

Terrain and experience also help, but there are opportunities to counter in open field... just there is a lack of assist required... 6 man's with better ST assist would have a better time. You need high burst/assist.

Now I can understand why Bitterstones would be grumbling about somethings like this... because they have the worse hard counter (less effective) they need their grudge mechanic on IB, and send one tank to punt him out of the equation... always dedicate atleast one tank to him and use CC (see comment about Phalanx and good tanks) its the same what 6 man groups would do in roam pretty much, but you need to do it in large scale enviroment in thick of action.

If Bitterstones tried to melee slayer him, we would try counter / protect and eat up the slayers... if they tried to snipe him with engi rifle... they would not have much time to pull this off as we would push hard, so they have alot to worry about and less window of opportunity.

If one of your RP's tried to stagger him each and every time before he got into position that would help, but i know if you try aoe maybe you will break it... I think another issue with dwarf only, is that your aoe is more limited/close range spam, which is similar to zealot... where BW can use range better, so you have harder time to nuke.

Fought against it a couple times on order so far, but it wasn't too much of a problem yet, because big assist dmg and when i noticed it go off as leader i stopped pushing for a couple seconds and let dps do their job. But I know not all situations will be like this, and sometimes will be rough.

As for RP ability, yeah it's a bit niche and defeatist, as it only can come into play when you are on the backfoot under heavy pressure... so not sure its current status quo, but the 5 sec rez was way too long, and maybe radius too small? a reduced cast time at cost of higher cooldown would make it better if not already/still the same... or make it channel uninterupable and take less damage while casting if going for 5 seconds rez (thats a long time to stand still without healing with a warband or more applying pressure)

So I can understand more grumblings from bitterstone about this in particular as they are RP heavy.

You need some intricate plays to counter that is more associated with roam/6 man style, than large scale. If assist is not on point, or you are bringing alot of classes that do not deal enough damage (another order issue) that is part of the problem in my opinion. The options are there just pulling it off is another thing. It's strong but not as unbeatable as you think, the issue is usually you have my warband around it, so there is other things you have to be careful of which prevent you doing what you want freely.

so if you CC properly that can buy your side a valuable few seconds atleast which can be huge, just need to dedicate resources, you talk about training zealot, but order tanks / dps / rp can be trained equally to counter... but order is generally more casual besides it few 6 man's. Im sure there are probally more ways.

Oh and another for bitterstones, magnet him to the side away from action, have slayers ready to pounce... while using mines to stagger rest.

Now that should make things more interesting, i really shouldn't have to need to give you the possible ways on how to beat it, there are probably more... im saying you have options but not utilizing them effictively because your dedicated resources are less, as less full order warbands so you have alot of RNG when you take pug groups to fill as the teamwork/chemistry should be less.

So for me its more a setup and general problem of order being more unogranised than orgranised... usually throws bodies at a problem instead of some more intricate plays(that roam groups do) and utilizing all weapons available.

1. Mark pesky zealots with enemy
(2. Add zele channel KB to always show in Buffhead)
3. Taunt?

If we magnet the endless knockback Zealot to the left or right he is right there where he could do the most damage. Attacking him with Slayers is not feasable as the endless knockbacks interrupts any form of proper ST Melee damage on him.
Sniping is not an Option as you can't spec engis as snipers in a RvR wb.

And the most annoying part is when he is sitting behind a keep wall on ground floor.
Then you can't pull, damage or kill him at all.

As for general Order:
No one has an WL in a propper warband setup. As well as not WH. These are classes for roaming 6 mens. And these have other priorities then to take out Lortie so that the other Order Warbands can win the fights.

seems like RoR is back in business after 3 months of forums pre winter hibernation.

Bozzax wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:34 pm 1. Mark pesky zealots with enemy
(2. Add zele channel KB to always show in Buffhead)
3. Taunt?

All of them (not many tho) are has special mark in my enemy PERMANENT MARK !
But taunt wont breake it, its Channel but its Buff its not Casting