Return of Reckoning

wargrimnir wrote:


I could see making an adjustment to make sure you're properly being rewarded for being in a warband

I think thats what most ppl would like to see

> We can't force you to play in a group. We don't have to reward you for playing solo,
> which is largely what healers tend to do when they can free-leech on out-of-group players.

Whether it's free leech or not only depends on the way you choose to calculate the contribution.

The current system only incitate players to be selfish. Now people only think about their groups. And will most of the time choose to ignore other "allies".. ("allies" when you don't think about them as "enemies trying to steal your food").

This game was supposed to bring Realm vs Realm, not just group vs group,

Players of each realm were supposed to cooperate, and not just to compete for rr..

A wise game designer would take that into account.

So healing in a group should recieve less rewards than luckily getting the killingblow as solodps (or grouped dps) enables group play or playing as a healer on any level? Ok. Propagating any other conclusion might be viewed as not comprehending the issue at hand. (Said as someone who plays all roles)

wargrimnir wrote:

AxelF wrote:

wargrimnir wrote:Maybe healers should use a few of those damaging abilities that take up half of their kit. It's almost like there's some intention there for them to do the occasional damage dealing in bigger fights.

Spoiler:

Some get a DPS log of how much you overheal during an extended RvR fight, that's where your wasted renown is going. You could have been tagging people with dots... such a shame...

And you wonder why we get so many 'do the devs even play X' posts....

I think (vainly hope..!) that this was supposed to be a flippant response to some (legitimate) concerns/complaints, call it what you will, but wow has it missed the mark. If this is supposed to be a serious indicator of how the dev team think healers should be playing then you guys have got some serious, serious reworking of healers AP costs and heal values ahead of you...!

Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.

Now I've gone back and read through this entire thread a second time. It seems to me healers aren't getting rewards solo, and that bothers them. But dps classes get renown solo, and that bothers them too. They also don't get renown for solo healing the solo dps. Solo dps classes don't want to group because they'd have to split the renown. What to do?

1. We don't really care about solo play.
2. Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.
3. Send the DPS a tell, I'd heal you if we were grouped ~~~ <3
4. Group up, and profit!

There's been a lot of talk about getting 20RP ticks, but do you know where those ticks were from? Are you inspecting your logs? Are they actually from kills, are they from assisting, or are they from 'killed too recently' players that would give 20RP anyway?

We can't force you to play in a group. We don't have to reward you for playing solo, which is largely what healers tend to do when they can free-leech on out-of-group players. If anything, I could see making an adjustment to make sure you're properly being rewarded for being in a warband, but that's pretty dubious based on the conversation that's gone on so far.

Not sure why I'm even bothering but anyway...

1) 'We don't care about solo play' but no renown for solo healers healing dps (who largely refuse group invitations because then they have to share their juicy renown points) because 'it messes up the balance of rr rewards in solo play' (in other words healers might come close to gaining a fraction of what solo dps gain...)

2) Solo healers are 'free-leeching' by doing their job and healing their realm mates, but somehow solo dps are virtuous and deserve a veritable rain of purple numbers (but we don't care about solo play. Just solo dps).

3) 'Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.' Ever played a healer v a dps? That's what healers have detaunt for, because a healer going 1 v 1 against a half decent dps is free rr for the dps unless the healer can detaunt and find friends or safety. The second a healer throws a DOT on the dps they're going to feel the pain.

4) 'Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.' Because you've spent the last year and a bit making damn sure hybrid specs have been nerfed into the ground, probably with good reason. This is absolutely an archetypal trinity game, healers heal, dps dps and tanks tank and cc (the good ones do anyway). To suddenly claim that everyone should be a GW style hybrid, healing and dpsing, and even more ludicrously in your last post, claiming that healers have AP and gcds in RvR to throw DOTs out - which thanks to the nerfing of hybrids and the way avoidance works will hit any decently spec'd/geared enemy for about 5 damage - just shows how seriously this thread is being taken. Just lock it now and save those of us that want a serious discussion from wasting our breath.

Do you seriously think that anyone bar dps gets any joy from playing solo? I play healers and tanks and the only reason I'm ever solo is if there's no guild or PUG wb up, and no one is accepting group invites. No one is masochistic enough to try and play a solo healer or a solo tank-spec'd tank in the current zerg meta. This whole thread is about making sure healers get suitably rewarded for healing (ie doing their job) in WBs, and combating the mindset some dps have of 'why would I bother grouping with you and sharing my rewards'.

AxelF wrote:
Not sure why I'm even bothering but anyway...

1) 'We don't care about solo play' but no renown for solo healers healing dps (who largely refuse group invitations because then they have to share their juicy renown points) because 'it messes up the balance of rr rewards in solo play' (in other words healers might come close to gaining a fraction of what solo dps gain...)

2) Solo healers are 'free-leeching' by doing their job and healing their realm mates, but somehow solo dps are virtuous and deserve a veritable rain of purple numbers (but we don't care about solo play. Just solo dps).

3) 'Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.' Ever played a healer v a dps? That's what healers have detaunt for, because a healer going 1 v 1 against a half decent dps is free rr for the dps unless the healer can detaunt and find friends or safety. The second a healer throws a DOT on the dps they're going to feel the pain.

4) 'Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.' Because you've spent the last year and a bit making damn sure hybrid specs have been nerfed into the ground, probably with good reason. This is absolutely an archetypal trinity game, healers heal, dps dps and tanks tank and cc (the good ones do anyway). To suddenly claim that everyone should be a GW style hybrid, healing and dpsing, and even more ludicrously in your last post, claiming that healers have AP and gcds in RvR to throw DOTs out - which thanks to the nerfing of hybrids and the way avoidance works will hit any decently spec'd/geared enemy for about 5 damage - just shows how seriously this thread is being taken. Just lock it now and save those of us that want a serious discussion from wasting our breath.

Do you seriously think that anyone bar dps gets any joy from playing solo? I play healers and tanks and the only reason I'm ever solo is if there's no guild or PUG wb up, and no one is accepting group invites. No one is masochistic enough to try and play a solo healer or a solo tank-spec'd tank in the current zerg meta. This whole thread is about making sure healers get suitably rewarded for healing (ie doing their job) in WBs, and combating the mindset some dps have of 'why would I bother grouping with you and sharing my rewards'.

Thanks for bothering, you could use some work on your tone.

1. Considering solo play, some classes are very good at it, others are not. We largely don't bother with class mechanics to ensure they're good at solo play. In the case of healers in particular, allowing solo/out-of-group healing to reward renown has the negative side-effect we strongly wish to avoid of encouraging healers to not group up at all. In such a case, they can just as effectively split rewards with only themselves and the person getting the kill, not contributing to group play. As what we do focus on when it comes to further development, this statement "We don't care about solo play" is accurate to our long held position. Group up.

2. If someone wants heals, they should be in a group with a healer. Otherwise, it's essentially charity work. If that lonely solo dps doesn't need your heals to do whatever, then don't heal him. Don't be fooled by the big ticks of renown they get, that's once every couple of minutes, if they can find a suitable target, on the off chance that target doesn't... have a healer.

3. You're not going 1v1 in the situation I laid out. You're going 2v1, after the other DPS dies because they refused to group. Taking out a target with 10% HP maybe, if you're feeling particularly generous, sending the ally a rez afterwards, and a group invite.

4. Hybrids have been nerfed, indirectly by implementing proper mitigation and the prevalence of Deft Defender in a RDPS dominated game, and through the removal of .ab ex which we do intend to address properly once we have the ability to do so. For some reason working on the patcher seems to make devs turn into ghosts. I suspect it's not a trivial issue. My statement was more directed towards the desire to receive renown, you need to do damage, or you're reliant on your group to do it for you.

For now you'll have to build towards INT gear if you want to contribute to kills, there's pieces with disrupt strikethrough, and until the meta changes to the point that DD isn't as prevalent, you're going to suffer similar woes as other ranged classes do. I play a Shaman, Da Green was a lot of fun during the brief .ab ex period where they did tons of healing and decent damage, but it was pulled because it was significantly overperforming. Same with Dok/WP, who still manage to be potent in groups designed for their melee to flourish. Not the best, but enough to roll over pugs with a coordinated group.

A DPS specced healer with low willpower can deal damage. They can group heal too. They can throw hots. Despite being specced for one thing, you don't lose access to the other, it's just diminished in effectiveness. Yeah, your group might yell at you for doing damage, but that comes with the general attitude that this game is a classic trinity setup despite healers having a DPS tree, and tanks having a DPS tree, maybe even in ranged classes having melee trees. Play how you like, but you might need some friends willing to do the same thing, or a pug warband that isn't paying attention enough to care.


So, all that being said, I don't see an issue with looking into whether warband healing is contributing in a similar fashion that in-group healing is. But I don't see taking a step into the realm of what would likely give healers a reason to drop their groups and spam hots on anyone nearby to leech RP. That was definitely a thing that we don't want to see return.

If I can speak for the thread, I don't think anyone cares about getting huge renown while they're solo (other than an instance in which you save a solo DPS in a 2v1.. and saying that you should just let the DPS die so that you can take advantage of the renown doesn't play into what the game is built on.. realm versus realm play). That being said, I think looking at renown gained while in a group or warband would be much appreciated.

I could care less about solo healing getting some kind of buff. I would just like to see warband/party healing get some kind of renown buff. As for the use of DPS abilities, the only thing ive been able to do so far is if its a fight where we are pushing easy I try to sneak up and hit multiple people with essence lash and help catch runners with FoK. Most of the time that is not the case however and i have to spend the whole time healing.

wargrimnir wrote:Maybe healers should use a few of those damaging abilities that take up half of their kit. It's almost like there's some intention there for them to do the occasional damage dealing in bigger fights.

Spoiler:

Some get a DPS log of how much you overheal during an extended RvR fight, that's where your wasted renown is going. You could have been tagging people with dots... such a shame...

I have to agree with Fey, better to not respond. I don't even know how to respond to something like this and remain civil and respectful.

wargrimnir wrote: Ya'll wanna play pure healers, have at it. I'm just saying, they're not pure healers, that's just how people play them.

Now I've gone back and read through this entire thread a second time. It seems to me healers aren't getting rewards solo, and that bothers them. But dps classes get renown solo, and that bothers them too. They also don't get renown for solo healing the solo dps. Solo dps classes don't want to group because they'd have to split the renown. What to do?

1. We don't really care about solo play.
2. Let the DPS die, take advantage of the situation with your own abilities to finish off the weak git.
3. Send the DPS a tell, I'd heal you if we were grouped ~~~ <3
4. Group up, and profit!

There's been a lot of talk about getting 20RP ticks, but do you know where those ticks were from? Are you inspecting your logs? Are they actually from kills, are they from assisting, or are they from 'killed too recently' players that would give 20RP anyway?

We can't force you to play in a group. We don't have to reward you for playing solo, which is largely what healers tend to do when they can free-leech on out-of-group players. If anything, I could see making an adjustment to make sure you're properly being rewarded for being in a warband, but that's pretty dubious based on the conversation that's gone on so far.

The problem in your statement above is that the current mechanics neither support #1 nor #4 and instead contradict it. Healers are being pushed out of group play and into solo play because it is vastly more rewarding in regards to character advancement than actually grouping up and supporting your group/warband.

Sure, say you don't think that healers should 'just' heal. The game is saying healers shouldn't heal 'period' if they want to advance their toon at equivalent rate. The truth is, this game needs full time healers doing exactly what they are doing unless you are overhauling the entire game to get rid of the trinity concept.

covenn wrote:

wargrimnir wrote:Maybe healers should use a few of those damaging abilities that take up half of their kit. It's almost like there's some intention there for them to do the occasional damage dealing in bigger fights.

Spoiler:

Some get a DPS log of how much you overheal during an extended RvR fight, that's where your wasted renown is going. You could have been tagging people with dots... such a shame...

Really?

I have to agree with Fey, better to not respond.

Oh, but you already did. Why not respond to the other two posts where I elaborated?