Return of Reckoning

Same. Enjoy your dinner.

Sedok wrote: This is completely wrong. Mythic designed the classes with large-scale RvR in mind, that's why you have the BW and Sorc in the first place. They were there to give small groups enough firepower to tango with larger warbands; the nerfs to their AoE, and later on the Slayer and Choppa, solidified "zerging" as the dominant strategy. That's why the AoE target limit was unlimited as well; there's no point in a 12-man trying to jump and bomb a 48-man if they can only kill 9 people at a time. Low TTK is also a necessity in RvR, not only for the sake of the game engine, but also so that fights actually end. A high TTK with a 5sec CD in-combat ress on healers would be absurd in 100 vs 100 environments.

This design philosophy isn't wrong, but when Mythic decided to have both ORvR and Scenarios in their game, the dug their own grave on that matter. There is no way you can balance both; as abilities that are necessary for ORvR are going to be OP in Scenarios, and abilities that work well in Scenarios will be underpowered in ORvR.

Mostly agree with you i must say, kinda surprised some people remember what happened at the beginning.

-TTK is exteremly low in WAR which is a problem especially in zergy combats. Thats why i proposed in the past buffing wounds "a bit" in only "RvR Lakes" but ignored anyways.

-Agree with AoE target limit but it'll be abused by larger groups if smaller one stick together aswell. It should bound with AAO and enable for underdog side.

-First version of CC was compelety broken which makes you allow perma CC on backline or frontline. CC's should need rework aswell same like AoE target limit which makes combats more deep and strategic.

-About the class balance; i remember the good old BW/Sorc and it was total abusal especially in funnel situations aka %60 of the RvR. And also original devs compeletly sucked making classes for viable in small scale + large scale. [ WL-WE-WH-Engi-Mag ]

-Design of AoE damage morales destroyed the depth of the combat.

-And also main design aspect of both realms was problematic and caused imbalance aswell.
Destro, fast morale gain - Order, better abilities and tactics ect.

CzarRedwall wrote:No expansions, no hype. Bad marketing, lack of development. Niche playerbase, not enough attention to 'casuals' (aka the majority of gamers). Combine this altogether and you have a formula for failure.

The game needed more appeal to a broader audience. A problem with being RvR focused is that you rely on others for advancement in the game, even at early stages. If a solution to this problem is to simply farm mobs because there is less material for the player to engage with (i.e. pve content, quests, dungeons), then you're going to scare off players and keep the ones who are 'dedicated' and wouldn't leave even if the game sucked.

we all know that WAR failed because of this play as a group mentality where u absolutely depend on each other to be able to do ANYTHING. But you still have some "OLD PEOPLE" thinking that it s the way to go . ...

Sedok wrote:

thetrueninja12 wrote:Which leads me to my next point. RvR. Dare I say it, the entire concept is inherently flawed, especially when you design and balance your combat abilities around small group skirmishes as opposed to large scale raids. Being shot down instantly in a large group setting is the antithesis of fun, and further puts emphasis on having the bigger army. There's just simply not enough mechanics that allow for smaller groups of players to outplay larger ones.

This is completely wrong. Mythic designed the classes with large-scale RvR in mind, that's why you have the BW and Sorc in the first place. They were there to give small groups enough firepower to tango with larger warbands; the nerfs to their AoE, and later on the Slayer and Choppa, solidified "zerging" as the dominant strategy. That's why the AoE target limit was unlimited as well; there's no point in a 12-man trying to jump and bomb a 48-man if they can only kill 9 people at a time. Low TTK is also a necessity in RvR, not only for the sake of the game engine, but also so that fights actually end. A high TTK with a 5sec CD in-combat ress on healers would be absurd in 100 vs 100 environments.

This design philosophy isn't wrong, but when Mythic decided to have both ORvR and Scenarios in their game, the dug their own grave on that matter. There is no way you can balance both; as abilities that are necessary for ORvR are going to be OP in Scenarios, and abilities that work well in Scenarios will be underpowered in ORvR.

A high ttk wouldn't work with abilities being the way they are. They'd have to be retooled. But it could work. For example, a bigger emphasis on (stackable) healing debuffs, rezzes that had a longer cooldown or even costing morale. In fact, hp doesn't even need to change for a higher ttk, had tanks been given more control over countering damage. Even with 3 stacks of hold the line, it was still only a 45% disrupt and dodge chance unlike a 45% spell and damage resist. But alas, it's too late for that, I reckon. The entire game would have to be retooled from the ground up.

But isn't that in itself a design flaw? You can't balance small group and large group combat because they're inextricably linked. What you do to one will have consequences in the other. And you can't have ORvR with only one or the other.

Bastion wrote:
2º) Dead PVE part. I know that this game is focused to RvR/PvP etc.... but this game has PvE content, and is Open World. PQs are good for farm items to professions or get some items in low tiers, after that, T4 only for Ruin Set but now with new Fortune set maybe do do less.

Played from preorder and have to disagree here. Pve part wasn't dead, especially on ORVR servers. Look at t1-t2 PQs, some of them even designed for rvr. Core servers look here like without content.

Even Warcamps was vulnerable, since guard didn't onshot you. i.e. tankable. I had somewhere funny SS, but can't find it now.
Imho, Core servers killed all fun in PVE. Yes, allowing to kill players for higher tier was a mistake, but concept at all was right. No cheating bolster, you are not safe in any place. Want to farm - make an group and resist to gankers.

But also there was few periods of exodus/inactivity of huge populations, some of them in my memory:
- first fort battles shows how it's laggy and buggy. Magus was able to pull enemy through doors. Rain of fire/PoS was stackable and about 2 'skilled' BWs was enough to kill almost everything on entrance.
- buggy lock system. points is locked, pq's done, some fights happens but lock don't work for hours.
- most funny for me : final nerf for aoe(crazy aoe damage, 150ft aoe heal. **** yeah) and cc(cc haven't any immunes before, and it's was 'fun' to stay in KoBTS stagger, then in BW's M3 and doing nothing just watching on decreasing HP bar. especially for melee ), especially for BW's forced alot of 'skilled' ppl to leave/losing interest.

But i guess it's all about proper maintaining of this game. EA/whatever doesn't plan to care about future. As i remember there was some proofs that even LOTD was ready at start, but since gamers always require carrot on stick - they added it later. Kinda sad. It's really good game in terms of massive battles with playable lag and it's pretty rare feature.

Haojin wrote: -Design of AoE damage morales destroyed the depth of the combat.

I disagree here. I think AoE damage morale's were suppose to be a meta shift once you hit late t3 or t4. Your suppose to step up to the challenge that this provides and care about morale gain rates. Recognize the different combo's and exploit their weaknesses.

We should of all cared about morale gain rates. Which mean's bringing banner's in nearly all situations. There is a mountain of counter play here that doesn't get used mainly because of the incorrect morale gain rates, RoR's different keep mechanics and banner's are not working.

There were ways to basically shut off Ap damage in this game if you remember with the defensive morale cycle's. You counter that with morale bombs. Chaos still can do it although it is gutted. Dwarves had it taken away which causes imbalances. Order completely lacks it atm.

Haojin wrote: -TTK is exteremly low in WAR which is a problem especially in zergy combats. Thats why i proposed in the past buffing wounds "a bit" in only "RvR Lakes" but ignored anyways.

Ya know... you can just slot wounds on your gear for anything frontline. In a morale bomb meta especially in a warband setting you probably want to do that anyway. Ya probably want multiple gear sets built to a different purpose. There is a extreme amount of customization available in this game.

Haojin wrote: -And also main design aspect of both realms was problematic and caused imbalance aswell.
Destro, fast morale gain - Order, better abilities and tactics ect.

Order has earlier access to morale bombs m2's also where destro does not have that many. But You can't experience this with incorrect morale gain rates.

The game was pretty niche cause of big time imvestments to get anything. It was almost openly hostile towards the non hardcore crowd, which automatically kept the sub numbers at a low after the first few months. It was laggy as heck and there was not enough high level content at release. And capital capture was a real drag after the first few times. For me the lag/performance problems were a real killer in ORvR. Stole away all the fun.

footpatrol2 wrote:

Haojin wrote: -Design of AoE damage morales destroyed the depth of the combat.

I disagree here. I think AoE damage morale's were suppose to be a meta shift once you hit late t3 or t4. Your suppose to step up to the challenge that this provides and care about morale gain rates. Recognize the different combo's and exploit their weaknesses.

We should of all cared about morale gain rates. Which mean's bringing banner's in nearly all situations. There is a mountain of counter play here that doesn't get used mainly because of the incorrect morale gain rates, RoR's different keep mechanics and banner's are not working.

There were ways to basically shut off Ap damage in this game if you remember with the defensive morale cycle's. You counter that with morale bombs. Chaos still can do it although it is gutted. Dwarves had it taken away which causes imbalances. Order completely lacks it atm.

Haojin wrote: -TTK is exteremly low in WAR which is a problem especially in zergy combats. Thats why i proposed in the past buffing wounds "a bit" in only "RvR Lakes" but ignored anyways.

Ya know... you can just slot wounds on your gear for anything frontline. In a morale bomb meta especially in a warband setting you probably want to do that anyway. Ya probably want multiple gear sets built to a different purpose. There is a extreme amount of customization available in this game.

Haojin wrote: -And also main design aspect of both realms was problematic and caused imbalance aswell.
Destro, fast morale gain - Order, better abilities and tactics ect.

Order has earlier access to morale bombs m2's also where destro does not have that many. But You can't experience this with incorrect morale gain rates.

Morale bombing is cancer and piss poor design as a couple of synced M2-3s can insta anything/any number of enemies. The irony is that the original devs wanted to avoid having few nuking 30 as in daoc.

<MMORPG_Taera> asdasd :asks: One of the big motivationfactors in DAoC was that one group (8 ppl) of well played characters was able to kill 30+ players at once if they knew exactly what they were doing. Do you have such things in mind when developing WAR? Is skill as important in WAR as it was in DAoC?
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> WAR is a bit diffrent from DAOC in terms of quantity of players a really good group can take down.
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> In general we're limiting AoE type abilities
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> And playing with the style of them
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> In general outside of morale you won't be able to hit more then 9 or so targtes
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> and in alot of cases we've done diffrent types of ranges and AoE shapes, Cone AoEs, Long Line AoEs, Hits 2 + nearby targets etc
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> So in WAR a well planned group could roll through a number of opponents
<[WAR]EAMythic_Gersh> but they won't Be able to roll up and Mez 30 people then nuke them all down Aka DAOC

Too bad they didn't widen this thought to morales since that is exactly what morale bombing enables.

Lets hope devs on RoR realizes it is not the rate of morale gain which is broken but the off abilities themselves.

nothing different that is making this server being unsuccesful

At launch there were severe problems with server stability and general class/gameplay balance. For a game that promised to revolve around giant-scale combat, it was rather disappointing for the first month or so when multiple warbands fighting would cause a zone to crash. Fortress sieges were a huge disappointment in that regard, also, and those weren't effectively addressed for several months, if I recall correctly(resulting in fortress sieges being instanced).

Then you had simple balance and gameplay issues. Some classes were complete jokes(Marauder at launch was incredibly weak). WH/WE stealth was awful and almost always broke incredibly easy. Abilities like Rain of Fire and Pit of Shades stacking literally wiped entire warbands(other examples, but that was the most notorious). Crowd control was completely imbalanced. Pull/root abilities weren't on the same timer. Immunity timers didn't always work, and even if they did, they were considerably less than the 30s timers we have now. They also didn't persist through death, so if you got knocked down, died, and ressed, you could(and often were) knocked down immediately upon res.

In short, the game suffered from severe playability issues with unstable servers. Gameplay balance was also terrible. The game was riddled with bugs, and it frankly felt like you were playing a game that had not been effectively beta tested at all. Endgame content was severely lacking and incredibly disappointing/unrewarding. Population suffered as a result, which was really the biggest problem. Mythic was *incredibly* slow to address population issues, and its ability to address problems brought up by the playerbase was terrible. Entire servers slowly became inactive and Mythic refused to even acknowledge there was a problem. By the time mergers started happening, it was too little too late.