Return of Reckoning

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[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17616

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Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:11 pm
by Grugnir
Spoiler:
Marsares wrote:Plus terrible pathing and irrational behaviour is less a concern on a RDPS pet. If my WL doesn't follow the right route and doesn't get to the enemy, i am screwed. If a SH pet takes a wrong route, chances are it can still hit its intended target (whilst shooting through walls... Broken!!).
You are missing the point. Herders pet is mainly to help in kiting - runaway skill is only activated with pet present. Same goes to disarm which helps a lot and allows to gain range.
It's not about dps of the pet at all. It's about class mechanic.

[edit] Also pets usually just disappear which means you're done.
Not discussing SHs - Penril

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:14 pm
by Marsares
Spoiler:
You also miss the point.

Pets are broken for all classes, but a class like a WL with a melee pet is disproportionately impacted, even more so as it cannot summon a replacement pet during the CD window - A SH can, although it may be a sub optimal pet, a pet is better than none, even more so as all our CC is attached to ours.
Not discussing SHs - Penril

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:17 pm
by Grugnir
Spoiler:
I agree Mar. It's about class mechanic in both cases. Whether it impacts you a little more or not - changing Loner would also mean changing All by myself. One fix, 2 profits.

And I think it is a good way to go.
Not discussing SHs - Penril

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:24 pm
by Marsares
Spoiler:
Wouldn't e against fixing SH pets as well, if the Loner route is what will be agreed upon. I am not one to call for nerfs or deny opposing classes their day in the sun.

What is most interesting is where this thread has gotten to. The consensus, with the exception of Wargrimnir, is now that the pet is broken, does disappear and is generally non responsive. Therefore, like I argued before and Azareal and other appear to agree with, you can NOT look at changing Pounce in isolation and there needs to be a broader discussion about the WL and its mechanic before any low level changes are considered.

In the words of Azareal: "Attack Pounce on the basis of one ability being capable of doing too much without solving wider issues with the class's design and toolkit and all you will do is kill the class."

I therefore request, akin to the proposed morale changes of 10s roots, to be locked and one on the broader needs of the WL to be opened. Or if the Devs wish not to stimulate a broader debate, for this thread to be locked and the Devs to come up with broader experimental changes like the Shaman/AM are undergoing.
Video shows pet does not disappear mid-combat, and is reponsive to commands. Stop restating already debunked arguments, this is the last time I say this - Penril.

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:52 pm
by kryss
Trying to make myself clear for the last time too. Look, Penril, if I'm running in the lakes and I get in combat during those 10-20 secs in which the pet disappears (it happens like 90% of the time) I simply will not have the pet at my disposal during the initial combat, until the animal decides do come back. Why is that so hard to understand? I don't get it, are we trying to cover the fact that pets can't be fixed? They were fine when we only had T3, when T4 came something went wrong.

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:01 pm
by Penril
kryss wrote:Trying to make myself clear for the last time too. Look, Penril, if I'm running in the lakes and I get in combat during those 10-20 secs in which the pet disappears (it happens like 90% of the time) I simply will not have the pet at my disposal during the initial combat, until the animal decides do come back. Why is that so hard to understand? I don't get it, are we trying to cover the fact that pets can't be fixed? They were fine when we only had T3, when T4 came something went wrong.
The pet doesn't act like this in SCs, keep sieges, or pre-arranged fights. And while it can be annoying having it disappear while riding in RvR, you can easily unsummon it before mounting up. This way you can call it immediately if you see an enemy. Therefore, imho, "Disappearing pet" is not a valid argument when discussing Pounce.

However, I didn't mod the other posts because of this. They were moderated because they kept restating a debunked argument (pet disappearing in combat).

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:05 pm
by UmmOK
Penril wrote:Therefore, imho, "Disappearing pet" is not a valid argument when discussing Pounce.
I agree. The Lion issue, while part-n-parcel with the mechanics and playability of the class, should be tabled for another discussion. The issue at hand is Pounce and how to fix the known issues (both for the WL and his opponents) in RoR.

One thing at a time.

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:09 pm
by Korhill
Spoiler:
I am in the work now and i dont want to write a lot on my mobile now, but penril you are so wrong. I am shocked what you are saying. So once a witchelf pops on us you say we should just summon the lion.. and this is ok

Sorry but that is not the playstyle of a working pet class.
We don't care about 1v1 - Penril

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:11 pm
by kryss
Penril wrote:
kryss wrote:Trying to make myself clear for the last time too. Look, Penril, if I'm running in the lakes and I get in combat during those 10-20 secs in which the pet disappears (it happens like 90% of the time) I simply will not have the pet at my disposal during the initial combat, until the animal decides do come back. Why is that so hard to understand? I don't get it, are we trying to cover the fact that pets can't be fixed? They were fine when we only had T3, when T4 came something went wrong.
The pet doesn't act like this in SCs, keep sieges, or pre-arranged fights. And while it can be annoying having it disappear while riding in RvR, you can easily unsummon it before mounting up. This way you can call it immediately if you see an enemy. Therefore, imho, "Disappearing pet" is not a valid argument when discussing Pounce.
If you devs really think this, Penril, then we should really consider to attach pet's skills to Loner and call it a day, as someone suggested. Ps. Don't forget that summoning the lion requires 1 sec + AP, it's still a disadvantage, especially if you get jumped (from a corner, the back, or by a WE). Not only alone, but in duos, 6 men, etc. Over and out

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:13 pm
by Penril
kryss wrote:
If you devs really think this, Penril, then we should really consider to attach pet's skills to Loner and call it a day, as someone suggested. Ps. Don't forget that summoning the lion requires 1 sec + AP, it's still a disadvantage, especially if you get jumped (from a corner, the back, or by a WE). Not only alone, but in duos, 6 men, etc. Over and out
So? Engi/Magus have to build a turret and wait 16s to be fully effective. Choppa/Slayer have to build rage. Sorc/BW have to build Combustion/Dark magic. And you complain about a 1s cast?

And I'm no dev btw.
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