Forum Order consensus vs reality. Why is that?

[Penril]

Remember when all healers would go OOG because they gained renown MUCH faster than the other classes? I can totally see DPS healers trying to trick the system, specially when they are still building their Duelist sets (DPS sets) and need to farm a lot of emblems.

I guess I'm not following. If you trick the system as a dps healer... you will have no heals in the sc. This will lessen your chance for your team to win by 500 points which is the best way to maximize sc emblems to buy duelist set. I think que'ing as actual dps healer when one, increases your chance to win as you get an actual healer in sc.

If you mean solely they will get faster pops - I guess. I honestly have not noticed a significant increase in sc que times since any que manager change.

You know several of them will be like "one less healer won't hurt us that much, we can win like this, and since my SC pops are much faster anyway, i will continue doing this".

[Dreadspectre]

The amount of healers solo queuing is much lower than you assume. The pool is already small to work with, at least in NA. I dunno maybe you play in EU primetime and this isn't an issue but for NA it is.

I cant figure what this has to do with your previous statement.

You said that there aren't that many healers with DF queueing for SC.

I stated that the SC queue pool for healers is small(smaller than any other class) period. Always is in an MMO, very few people like healing.

I then stated that the NA population is -very small- compared to EU. Meaning that already usually small pool is way way smaller.

Add to the fact that since the server is so dead there isn't much else to do BUT grind mobs in between queues, which means you'll be slotting DF if you're solo.

Make sense now?

[Penril]

You said that there aren't that many healers with DF queueing for SC.

I stated that the SC queue pool for healers is small(smaller than any other class) period. Always is in an MMO, very few people like healing.

I then stated that the NA population is -very small- compared to EU. Meaning that already usually small pool is way way smaller.

Add to the fact that since the server is so dead there isn't much else to do BUT grind mobs in between queues, which means you'll be slotting DF if you're solo.

Make sense now?

Is this a heal-spec healer that just slots DF for mob grinding while waiting for SCs?
Or is this a healer that spec'd for DPS to farm mobs and q's for SCs in the meantime?

[Dreadspectre]

You said that there aren't that many healers with DF queueing for SC.

I stated that the SC queue pool for healers is small(smaller than any other class) period. Always is in an MMO, very few people like healing.

I then stated that the NA population is -very small- compared to EU. Meaning that already usually small pool is way way smaller.

Add to the fact that since the server is so dead there isn't much else to do BUT grind mobs in between queues, which means you'll be slotting DF if you're solo.

Make sense now?

Is this a heal-spec healer that just slots DF for mob grinding while waiting for SCs?
Or is this a healer that spec'd for DPS to farm mobs and q's for SCs in the meantime?

I suppose it doesn't matter if they just keep switching out DF before hitting queue again. Tedious though.

That being said, a simple flip of Harbinger and tactic presets and I'm suddenly a decent healer. Should Zealots even be tied to this rule heh.

[Penril]

Which is why i don't think DF should be the deciding factor for someone's role. The first healer would be being punished in my example (with longer Q times) even though he will definitely be healing once he gets a SC pop. The second healer wouldn't care. And both can trick the system.

Yes, a DPS zealot can suddenly become a decent healer if needed. But his role in the SC would be DPS; supposedly, there should be other healers in there.

Don't get me wrong, i appreciate that devs are doing something about role-checks. Great work guys. This is simply what i think (feedback, suggestion, take it as you will).

[freshour]

Hmmm so maybe it is more of a meta problem after all? DPS Runepriests aren't able to get their full spec so that is always a very good thing. DPS AM's seem to be the class a lot of people jump on when the player base is down b/c it's a fun IDGAF spec. Grace WP whether you want to admit it or not can heal pretty damn well with any melee in the group. In SC's where I have 2 tanks, 1 healer, 2 dps, I easily keep up with salvation WP's. If I didn't get wounds buff and spec'd more into salv rather than 5 in wrath for init debuff, I could probably throw on some more willpower and easily trump a salv WP. Sure its a lot more skill/management involved. Sure it requires tanks to guard, melee to be real melee but it is not out of the question at all. Anyone who specs full wrath is well "special"

But if you guys really hate Melee Healers including DoK's (well the heal debuff sorta makes everyone love them) or Grace WP - you should probably think again. Realize it takes a lot more skill than your current class, and rather than hating on the guy, realize that it is way more burst healing than you can do if he is protected as divine assault can heal massive amounts. And he gives everyone a solid amount of crit if you remind him to use init debuff on the targets you are assisting on (also remind your party to assist) be it a button or just clicking/tabbing to the same target.

I wonder what it would take to lure some order into playing ib's and sm's with a shield? sure the specs are there and especially IB can be amaaaaaazing with a Grace WP. I think I've over 50% disrupt with one and nearing 40% parry. But that duo rarely happens. Would some cool transmutes maybe persuade people into it? I know T4 is coming but some cooler looking shields might actually warrant the people who like to look good (me ) to want to use them. Sure it is a lame excuse to use a shield, but hey if it works it works.

I have seen slayers change the game entirely. I have been apart of 2 slayers, 2 knights, grace wp, salv wp parties that ROFLSTOMPED full SC's with ease. But fewer tanks = more slayers saying f that DPS AM here I come! so it seems like a butterfly effect.

Anyone have any ideas to create more of an incentive against RDPS without hurting it, and to MDPS firstly tanks to then warrant more MDPS like slayers and WL's (yah I said it, there are very very very few of them granted 1 good one in a good party can make you hate the world it seems).

Example. People love DoK/WP healers. You play destro get 1 Healing DoK and 1 DPS/Grace DoK heal debuffing everyone, and you essentially nullify a grace WP and your MDPS is like holy crap this is amazeballs. Hence why Melee DoK's who are any good are absolutely amazeballs not to mention they are pretty freaking cool looking.

Example 2. - People love WP salv specs. The majority hate Melee Grace/Wrath combos. Reason being those people youtubed melee WP and saw some pretty sweet videos from live. Not taking into consideration the insane power creep on live, that those WP were nearly max geared and most had more skill than the WP's who are determined to be them. But if you get a grace WP who realizes his position in the game and that he can take a lot of the HOT pressure off RP's and AM's and Salvs and allow them to focus more on their bigger longer casting heals, it can be really really nice.

- So again, any ideas as to HOW to create an incentive for more order tanks/MDPS? I mean hell if transmutes would do it and destro was given some as well so they didn't nerd rage out... I would say why not? It seems like a waste of time, but the less order (me) on the forums making sarcastic passive aggressive threads the better .

[Sulorie]

Yep. The intent with that was not to provide a cast-iron method of detection with the assumption that people would try to avoid it. It was to attempt to take the guilt off DPS RP/Zealot by allowing them to run DF and know that they counted as DPS for matchmaking purposes. If people want to be chucklefucks, they're going to find a way of doing that anyway.

And i completely understand. Unfortunately, some players will go like "hey, i don't get many SC pops while having DF specd... i will slot Discipline and something else... oh instant pop! good, taking SC and slotting Divine Fury back once im in". And you end up having a SC with one healer less than expected.

I would link the check to certain skills (that are always specd in that class DPS spec). AM has heal debuff? He is DPS. Zealot has CA? he is DPS.

Just my 0.02.

WP/DOK are the only healers who perform significantly worse at healing, when having damage spec. All others can heal well enough with core tactics and a gear swap.
By adding hard barriers to force dps healers to a single role, you basically cut the number of possible healers to kick off a new sc by half.
Good dps healers adapt to the situation. Selfish one lose the sc, because people lack healing.

Now imagine the opposite, too many real healers and all with dps spec were sorted out.

Queuing with DF slotted to brand yourself as dps is a good idea. Forcing dps healers in different queues with silly detection measures like certain skills or tactics on the other hand is the wrong way.

[Penril]

WP/DOK are the only healers who perform significantly worse at healing, when having damage spec. All others can heal well enough with core tactics and a gear swap.
By adding hard barriers to force dps healers to a single role, you basically cut the number of possible healers to kick off a new sc by half.
Good dps healers adapt to the situation. Selfish one lose the sc, because people lack healing.

Now imagine the opposite, too many real healers and all with dps spec were sorted out.

Queuing with DF slotted to brand yourself as dps is a good idea. Forcing dps healers in different queues with silly detection measures like certain skills or tactics on the other hand is the wrong way.

Is "silly detection measures" your only argument?

Imho, most DPS healers are selfish. They won't throw a HoT at you even if you are at 5% health and 5ft away from them. I really don't see them swapping gear/tactics to heal in a SC when needed (yes, some do, but they are very few).

I'm sure there are way more players trying to game the system, than good dps healers (by this i mean dps healers that also heal their groups).

[Dreadspectre]

Yep. The intent with that was not to provide a cast-iron method of detection with the assumption that people would try to avoid it. It was to attempt to take the guilt off DPS RP/Zealot by allowing them to run DF and know that they counted as DPS for matchmaking purposes. If people want to be chucklefucks, they're going to find a way of doing that anyway.

And i completely understand. Unfortunately, some players will go like "hey, i don't get many SC pops while having DF specd... i will slot Discipline and something else... oh instant pop! good, taking SC and slotting Divine Fury back once im in". And you end up having a SC with one healer less than expected.

I would link the check to certain skills (that are always specd in that class DPS spec). AM has heal debuff? He is DPS. Zealot has CA? he is DPS.

Just my 0.02.

WP/DOK are the only healers who perform significantly worse at healing, when having damage spec. All others can heal well enough with core tactics and a gear swap.
By adding hard barriers to force dps healers to a single role, you basically cut the number of possible healers to kick off a new sc by half.
Good dps healers adapt to the situation. Selfish one lose the sc, because people lack healing.

Now imagine the opposite, too many real healers and all with dps spec were sorted out.

Queuing with DF slotted to brand yourself as dps is a good idea. Forcing dps healers in different queues with silly detection measures like certain skills or tactics on the other hand is the wrong way.

I have to believe this is definitely messing SC team comp makeup.

I think a lot of players don't even know this system exists and are leaving DF slotted for grinding when they just requeue on the fly. I know I didn't know about this until today and I've queued up many times with DF slotted.

[bloodi]

Anyone who thinks scs are worse after the queue change doesnt remember the scs before the change or is lying with ill intent.

Queueing and seeing no healers was not an odd occurance, was 1 of every 3 scs on NA times.

The change didnt mess anything, is a blessing.