Return of Reckoning

Some testing might be useful. See exactly how much the loss of armor impacts your TTK (er, time-to-death?), and what classes/group comps exacerbate the issue the most?

GodlessCrom wrote:A guard-pierce debuff specific to 2h tanks would be useful IMO. That avoids indirect buff to 2h dps like White Lion or Choppa/Slayer. Either one placed on the Guarding tank, or the Guarded mdps/healer: again, something like

Shieldbreaker:
reduces Damage Reduction target receives from Guard by X%. Requires Greatweapon.

@gatekeeper: ah, I see your point. Not terribly useful then? Again though, +dmg% and parry% while wielding 2her wouldn't be terrible. Have to replace the mastery tactic in all those trees though, so maybe less feasible?

Yeah in theory you could make "GWM" incorporate some sort of block pass through but then would need to be given to all tanks....

I think the two best bets for F.O. would be diminishing the "sacrifice" to pik this up and increasing the damage provided (like 25% more damage and 20% less armor).

Either that or something like "When victim of a critical hit, increases your AA speed by X% for 10 seconds". Something like that instead.

OR, what about just a flat up AA speed increase? Its effectively the same as "damage % increase" but wouldnt affect everything so it shouldnt be a big "balance worry"... You would have to know some math %s to determine what a "fair" amount of increase it is...

Say 25% of your damage is AA, buffing that 50% even would only be a net increase of 12.5% damage.... Might be an interesting way to go there....

TenTonHammer wrote:Also armor pen yes but parry is not affect by WS here in RoR

It does. The paperdoll has been broken forever, but the defensive calcs have used strength and weapon skill for a long time.

GodlessCrom wrote:Some testing might be useful. See exactly how much the loss of armor impacts your TTK (er, time-to-death?), and what classes/group comps exacerbate the issue the most?

Well many classes bypass armor, but the crux is that since you are a melee class with no gap closer and really not much in the way of "control" you have to run right into a melee train in order to get to the back line to deal damage.

Either that or your following around a Mdps.

Either way that loss of armor is HUGE. Ill illustrate:


I think I have about 2500 armor. I think its ~67%? Lets just assume those numbers for now.
Dropping 33% of that I go down to ~ 1600 armor and it puts me ~ 45%ish I think.

So look at 100 damage incoming.

PRE-FO: 100 * (1-67%) = 33 net damage.
With FO: 100 * (1-45%) = 55 net damage.

Increase %? 55/33= 67%.

So you are TAKING 67% more damage from melee sources to deal 15% more?

This is just a hypothetical so dont jump down my throat if these numbers are off. Its merely representing the fact that armor is HUGE against melee and losing even a little is much more than people think it is....

Even a 20% loss of armor would be like a 500 point loss.... Which ends up being a HUGE % when you look at the "net values"

Its why 1% ARP > 1% more damage by a LONG shot.

th3gatekeeper wrote:

GodlessCrom wrote:Some testing might be useful. See exactly how much the loss of armor impacts your TTK (er, time-to-death?), and what classes/group comps exacerbate the issue the most?

Well many classes bypass armor, but the crux is that since you are a melee class with no gap closer and really not much in the way of "control" you have to run right into a melee train in order to get to the back line to deal damage.

Either that or your following around a Mdps.

Either way that loss of armor is HUGE. Ill illustrate:


I think I have about 2500 armor. I think its ~67%? Lets just assume those numbers for now.
Dropping 33% of that I go down to ~ 1600 armor and it puts me ~ 45%ish I think.

So look at 100 damage incoming.

PRE-FO: 100 * (1-67%) = 33 net damage.
With FO: 100 * (1-45%) = 55 net damage.

Increase %? 55/33= 67%.

So you are TAKING 67% more damage from melee sources to deal 15% more?

This is just a hypothetical so dont jump down my throat if these numbers are off. Its merely representing the fact that armor is HUGE against melee and losing even a little is much more than people think it is....

Even a 20% loss of armor would be like a 500 point loss.... Which ends up being a HUGE % when you look at the "net values"

Its why 1% ARP > 1% more damage by a LONG shot.

Ah yeah, makes a lot of sense. I knew FO was bad, but good to have some maths in here to illustrate (hypothetically) how bad it truly is. I am not a math major (humanities graduate student; I enjoy playing a class as practical in game as my education is in real-life ) so not my strong suit. Perhaps someone could calculate just how much surivivability a 2h tank loses by virtue of not having the armor and block chance from a shield? Might put some solid perspective on the gaps between the two specs at their foundational levels.

Genisaurus wrote:
It does. The paperdoll has been broken forever, but the defensive calcs have used strength and weapon skill for a long time.

az said he didnt implement it cause the affect that ws had on parry and wp had on disrupt was minimal?

th3gatekeeper wrote: Either way that loss of armor is HUGE. Ill illustrate:

I think I have about 2500 armor. I think its ~67%? Lets just assume those numbers for now.
Dropping 33% of that I go down to ~ 1600 armor and it puts me ~ 45%ish I think.

So look at 100 damage incoming.

PRE-FO: 100 * (1-67%) = 33 net damage.
With FO: 100 * (1-45%) = 55 net damage.

Increase %? 55/33= 67%.

You forgot the usual armor penetration, that will reduce the absolute damage gain by a lot. I'd say 40% is doable at the moment for pretty much all physical damage dealers.

Pre-FO: 100*(1-0.67*0.6) ~ 60
Post-FO: 100*(1-0.45*0.6) ~ 73

Increase: 73/60 ~ 21%

This is a way smaller increase with even higher armor penetration - and assuming it works atm, most physical damage dealers will stack weaponskill.

Idrinth wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote: Either way that loss of armor is HUGE. Ill illustrate:

I think I have about 2500 armor. I think its ~67%? Lets just assume those numbers for now.
Dropping 33% of that I go down to ~ 1600 armor and it puts me ~ 45%ish I think.

So look at 100 damage incoming.

PRE-FO: 100 * (1-67%) = 33 net damage.
With FO: 100 * (1-45%) = 55 net damage.

Increase %? 55/33= 67%.

You forgot the usual armor penetration, that will reduce the absolute damage gain by a lot. I'd say 40% is doable at the moment for pretty much all physical damage dealers.

Pre-FO: 100*(1-0.67*0.6) ~ 60
Post-FO: 100*(1-0.45*0.6) ~ 73

Increase: 73/60 ~ 21%

This is a way smaller increase with even higher armor penetration - and assuming it works atm, most physical damage dealers will stack weaponskill.

Yes, but then you addi n armor pots or buffs.... Then you also factor in toughness etc etc.

Even still. Its pretty clear the 33% loss of armor = MORE damage incoming than the buff you receive. Where as other classes dont "take" more damage they just heal less.

Thats a little of the issue. When a DPS AM is sitting back casting on a target, he isnt "at risk" of getting nuked by running 25% more damage and 20% less healing.

The Tank running FO gives himself 15% more damage but by almost any calculations will end up taking MORE than 15% damage AND has to be on the front lines to do that too....

It doesnt seem quite "equivalent" you know?

Thats why the "loss" for this tactic should almost be somewhere else instead... Such as a reduction of block % (making it not a pro vs con for 2h) I could see that actually making sense...

"Focused Offense: Increases your damage by ~20-25% but decreases your chance to block by 10%" or something... Thats another way of potentially doing this.... Would have no "con" for 2h who give up block, but now a SnB could in theory run this if they stack block elsewhere and are willing to give up 10% of it.....

Its almost like.... The DPS AM doesnt NEED to heal to deal damage but the 2H Knight WILL take damage trying to deal damage.....

Double Post

TenTonHammer wrote:

Genisaurus wrote:
It does. The paperdoll has been broken forever, but the defensive calcs have used strength and weapon skill for a long time.

az said he didnt implement it cause the affect that ws had on parry and wp had on disrupt was minimal?

This is perhaps true using the live calculations, but we don't use those. The effect is still minimal against a DPS stacking their offensive stat, but it's a non-zero increase and can be significant against non-dps classes.

(Defensive stat / offensive stat) * 0.075 = defense chance.

Always assume the offensive stat is softcapped, because it will be.