SH vs SW difference

[Jaycub]

>buggy pet

put it on passive and manually control it, there is literally 2 commands you have to give it in total and doing so removes any retarded AI problems because everything else is pretty much automated. SH/Lion pets also seem to ignore a lot of pathing and just fly through walls and **** which is pretty nice.

The only problem I have seen on this server with pets is someone can kill them in about 3 seconds if they want to, would be nice if pets had a detaunt or something.

[greenstoned]

>buggy pet

The only problem I have seen on this server with pets is someone can kill them in about 3 seconds if they want to, would be nice if pets had a detaunt or something.

id consider shoting through walls and obstacles and ignoring bolster and tearing appart low and mid lvl players in each tier a problem ;p

[mursie]

1. Spiked squig does more than compensate for the lower base dmg. The pet is pretty reliable (I'm not hearing anyone crying about wl either?), if you can't micro manage, maybe the class isn't for you.

An opinion. some say reliable, others do not. Regardless, I'd rather just have the pet's damage built into my own base damage and not rely on the AI of pet. This is more efficient and guarantees 100% uptime of all your DPS. In addition, your DPS will benefit entirely from your stats creating more efficiency.

2.SW uses skirmisher stance to dmg, not assault.

They will use assault and scout depending on target... with skirmish to open. assault for higher armor targets because it grants more weapon skill and scout for more ballistic on clothies. again - more efficient and access to significantly more weapon skill than the SQ.

3.SH has squig frenzy? (offensive tool btw.)

THREE MINUTE cooldown. I would much rather have VoN which is a 25% damage buff 10 seconds every 30 seconds

4. off gcd disarm on your pet works really well, can be used to instantly disarm a wh coming out of stealth. By using it preemptively and with the right stance. Rkd is great no doubt.

RKD is great and vastly superior to off gcd disarm.

5. SH pet doesn't rely on ap-> good sustained dmg

again, SH pet is AI. AI that can be killed and put on cooldown. Can path stupidly when you kite a target and become de-spawned as a result which kills your dps. Can sit afk for a few seconds on every target engage even when manually commanded to attack (i've noticed this seems to be mostly something to do with on the move. If you command to attack a target while stationary it does immediate engage...but if you are on the move it can sometimes just continue to follow you for seconds before finally accepting command)


6. Not sure if stacking with DT on this server, if no (which should be the case, as tactic+tactic shouldn't stack) it's way less useful than ppl make it

Fine if you think LS is worthless. In t4 it and runaway tactic aren't on either toon's bar for group play. but it's still nice to have that option for group play.


Stacking ws on sw will give you the benefit on 100% of your dmg, on sh you'll get only 50% from your ws onto your pet which makes it worse

I know - it is yet another reason why the SW is superior to the SQ. 100% benefit from all three of your damage increase stats (crit/ws/bal) further increases the efficiency of your dps. Considering that at end game SQ and SW will have capped ballistic and mirror levels of crit (maybe even more crit for SW considering order's crit enhancements)... the toon that then has the better weapon skill for higher armor pen will definitely do better damage all else equal.

[greenstoned]

habit developped on live, pet on passive and manually assign targets to it
did it back then to avoid guard aggro near ennemy spawn, and it should be done now by any decent herder to avoid ai problems

while spiky is pretty squishy, it has decent range, doesnt suffer much from pathing issues compared to melee squigs, which nobody runs unless both spiky and the gas squig are on cooldown, which is pretty much never

and tbh, i do use scout stance some, but hardly use assault stance. i get ws from talis, level 33 tactic, and renown training. balli is easily gotten on gear, set bonuses, and potions

[tomato]

1. Spiked squig does more than compensate for the lower base dmg. The pet is pretty reliable (I'm not hearing anyone crying about wl either?), if you can't micro manage, maybe the class isn't for you.

An opinion. some say reliable, others do not. Regardless, I'd rather just have the pet's damage built into my own base damage and not rely on the AI of pet. This is more efficient and guarantees 100% uptime of all your DPS. In addition, your DPS will benefit entirely from your stats creating more efficiency.

We get it, you can't handle pet controls.

2.SW uses skirmisher stance to dmg, not assault.

They will use assault and scout depending on target... with skirmish to open. assault for higher armor targets because it grants more weapon skill and scout for more ballistic on clothies. again - more efficient and access to significantly more weapon skill than the SQ.

No you don't swap stances unless for defence. 5 crit and beeing able to aa while moving from skirmisher is better than bal buff, I mean do you have any idea what you're talking about suggesting stuff like this?

3.SH has squig frenzy? (offensive tool btw.)

THREE MINUTE cooldown. I would much rather have VoN which is a 25% damage buff 10 seconds every 30 seconds

I was just correcting your statement about sh not having offensive tools, not comparing SF and VoN.
All in all, sh sustain and brust dmg on clothies is still superior. Test it.


4. off gcd disarm on your pet works really well, can be used to instantly disarm a wh coming out of stealth. By using it preemptively and with the right stance. Rkd is great no doubt.

RKD is great and vastly superior to off gcd disarm.

Nice mate, you do see I wrote rkd is great? I was never saying off gcd disarm is better, just explaining how it is a great defence tool. Learn to read. Again.

5. SH pet doesn't rely on ap-> good sustained dmg

again, SH pet is AI. AI that can be killed and put on cooldown. Can path stupidly when you kite a target and become de-spawned as a result which kills your dps. Can sit afk for a few seconds on every target engage even when manually commanded to attack (i've noticed this seems to be mostly something to do with on the move. If you command to attack a target while stationary it does immediate engage...but if you are on the move it can sometimes just continue to follow you for seconds before finally accepting command)

Yes your inability with pet mechanics. We had that. Your pet gets killed if you keep it in meele range, otherwise it lives more or less forever playing with half decent healers. Learn to pet.

6. Not sure if stacking with DT on this server, if no (which should be the case, as tactic+tactic shouldn't stack) it's way less useful than ppl make it

Fine if you think LS is worthless. In t4 it and runaway tactic aren't on either toon's bar for group play. but it's still nice to have that option for group play.

Where did I write LS is useless? Your reading Comprehension is really pathetic. I said it's overrated.

Stacking ws on sw will give you the benefit on 100% of your dmg, on sh you'll get only 50% from your ws onto your pet which makes it worse

I know - it is yet another reason why the SW is superior to the SQ. 100% benefit from all three of your damage increase stats (crit/ws/bal) further increases the efficiency of your dps. Considering that at end game SQ and SW will have capped ballistic and mirror levels of crit (maybe even more crit for SW considering order's crit enhancements)... the toon that then has the better weapon skill for higher armor pen will definitely do better damage all else equal.

SH benefits more from balistic stacking than sw, as I said, sh better dmg vs clothies, sw vs highly armored, point proven, ty.

[mursie]

habit developped on live, pet on passive and manually assign targets to it
did it back then to avoid guard aggro near ennemy spawn, and it should be done now by any decent herder to avoid ai problems

it isn't a habit - it's a requirement to play herder. My point - even when doing this, it is still buggy and unresponsive. If you are on the move, it can hop passive with you for seconds despite you commanding it to engage.

If kiting away from target in a linear fashion (think temple of isha center back to a spawn) the pet sits stationary attacking while the attacker kites with you...eventually becoming out of range on its own.

Can you micro around all of this and make herder work? sure. But having that AI damage built into your own base damage which ensures its uptime no matter what... is just better.

[mursie]

We get it, you can't handle pet controls.
typical - when your "facts" are called opinions like the generalizations that you bashed to start all of this, you then resort to insults to try and further your point.


No you don't swap stances unless for defence. 5 crit and beeing able to aa while moving from skirmisher is better than bal buff, I mean do you have any idea what you're talking about suggesting stuff like this?

the t4 build of sw will swap stance. in our current cap they don't..but in our current cap the difference between SW and SQ is much more in favor of SW as others have noted. At least in t4 the SQ will begin to get some of its burst build to be inline with the SW.

I was just correcting your statement about sh not having offensive tools, not comparing SF and VoN.
All in all, sh sustain and brust dmg on clothies is still superior. Test it.


Disagree - all in all is definitely the issue. Sure, in a setup where your pet is alive and SF on its 3min cooldown is up and the pet is actively on your target... the SQ vs the SW will be comparable. But all in all, due to the pet issues and the much more active VoN, the SW has much better reliability of their dps for both burst and sustain.


Nice mate, you do see I wrote rkd is great? I was never saying off gcd disarm is better, just explaining how it is a great defence tool. Learn to read. Again. I wrote your "it is great" statement over again with intention. In earlier posts you have tried to use this off gcd disarm as a pro for the great defense of the SQ. The point here is - SW has a better great defense. So the disarm is a push.


Yes your inability with pet mechanics. We had that. Your pet gets killed if you keep it in meele range, otherwise it lives more or less forever playing with half decent healers. Learn to pet.
You can master micro your pet all you want. It will, at times, have the issues that have been raised (unresponsive at times, on cooldown, bad pathing). If you want to insult me fine. Having all of this built into your base dmg is just more efficient for your damage.

Where did I write LS is useless? Your reading Comprehension is really pathetic. I said it's overrated.
You said "it's way less useful than people think". Apologies for considering this your opinion that it is worthless. Glad to see we agree that SW has yet another great group tool it can use. It seemed from your original post you wanted to discount it. Great job at more insults though.


SH benefits more from balistic stacking than sw, as I said, sh better dmg vs clothies, sw vs highly armored, point proven, ty.
Ballistic will be easily capped for both classes. The pet has issues that do not guarantee its uptime but the higher base dmg is guaranteed for SW. With ballistic capped for both, the higher armor pen class will do more dmg on all targets.

[tomato]

We get it, you can't handle pet controls.
typical - when your "facts" are called opinions like the generalizations that you bashed to start all of this, you then resort to insults to try and further your point.

I have almost no problems handling the pet. Maybe I'm just a pet controling god, or just maybe, it isn't as difficult as you make it? You presenting your opinions as "facts" is nothing new aswell.

No you don't swap stances unless for defence. 5 crit and beeing able to aa while moving from skirmisher is better than bal buff, I mean do you have any idea what you're talking about suggesting stuff like this?

the t4 build of sw will swap stance. in our current cap they don't..but in our current cap the difference between SW and SQ is much more in favor of SW as others have noted. At least in t4 the SQ will begin to get some of its burst build to be inline with the SW.

As others have noticed, ye I saw penril saying sh has more pressure right now... Atleast you got unbiased sh main stinkyweed downplaying his class.
Skirmisher is almost always the best stance, if you can't see that I'm sorry.

I was just correcting your statement about sh not having offensive tools, not comparing SF and VoN.
All in all, sh sustain and brust dmg on clothies is still superior. Test it.


Disagree - all in all is definitely the issue. Sure, in a setup where your pet is alive and SF on its 3min cooldown is up and the pet is actively on your target... the SQ vs the SW will be comparable. But all in all, due to the pet issues and the much more active VoN, the SW has much better reliability of their dps for both burst and sustain.

Nope, it's just like I said.

Nice mate, you do see I wrote rkd is great? I was never saying off gcd disarm is better, just explaining how it is a great defence tool. Learn to read. Again. I wrote your "it is great" statement over again with intention. In earlier posts you have tried to use this off gcd disarm as a pro for the great defense of the SQ. The point here is - SW has a better great defense. So the disarm is a push.

Allright because you seem like a slow guy I'm gonna requote my stuff about sh/sw defence comparison:

Better defense? sw has more or less only armor stance going for him and a meele disarm (leaving out the tools both of them have), while sh has run away, off gcd disarm and ranged charge+taunt. Later on sh will also get a knockback.
In conclusion, sh has better defense.

Rkd is worse as defensive tool as it has a casttime (no instant disarm on we like sh can) and isn't off gcd.

Yes your inability with pet mechanics. We had that. Your pet gets killed if you keep it in meele range, otherwise it lives more or less forever playing with half decent healers. Learn to pet.
You can master micro your pet all you want. It will, at times, have the issues that have been raised (unresponsive at times, on cooldown, bad pathing). If you want to insult me fine. Having all of this built into your base dmg is just more efficient for your damage.

Obviously having the pet build into your ase dmg would be better, but the dmg the sh pet brings is way higher than the additional base dmg the sw gets. (Fact here btw., look at the numbers.)

Where did I write LS is useless? Your reading Comprehension is really pathetic. I said it's overrated.
You said "it's way less useful than people think". Apologies for considering this your opinion that it is worthless. Glad to see we agree that SW has yet another great group tool it can use. It seemed from your original post you wanted to discount it. Great job at more insults though.

If you would have thought for one second, I wrote in my first post were I compared all aspects of sh and sw, that sh has better defence, sw better group synergy and that sh more dmg than cloth, sw against heavy armor has. How much more do I have to repeat myself? I even gave sw the edge in group synergy?

SH benefits more from balistic stacking than sw, as I said, sh better dmg vs clothies, sw vs highly armored, point proven, ty.
Ballistic will be easily capped for both classes. The pet has issues that do not guarantee its uptime but the higher base dmg is guaranteed for SW. With ballistic capped for both, the higher armor pen class will do more dmg on all targets.

Learn to pet again. Bal will be easily capped? I see you're one of the stats fanatic. Let me tell you, in 99% there's a better tactic to use than your shitty stat tactic.

[magter3001]

If you would have thought for one second, I wrote in my first post were I compared all aspects of sh and sw, that sh has better defence, sw better group synergy and that sh more dmg than cloth, sw against heavy armor has. How much more do I have to repeat myself? I even gave sw the edge in group synergy?

Can we just end the thread with this? Both classes have their ups and downs. SH got run away (the ability) which is awesome as an escape tool that you can still damage people while running away (in addition to it's 50% challenge) while SW has a rkd which is a great offensive tool that can punish the crap out of people who position themselves poorly. To me, those two abilities (at this level) is what separates the two classes in terms of playstyle.

On my SH, I constantly have to keep my eye out on my positioning if I play against a SW because of their rkd while on my SW I always pay attention to situations that I can abuse my rkd, whether it be a healer who is too slow to kite or a sorc chasing me to my mdps.

[mursie]

Tomato - I've read your points. As they are opinion and generalization I am not quoting them again.

I think your opinions and generalizations are wrong. Very wrong.

You can disagree with mine. That's fine. Of course, I already said that though. It was the entire point of my original post.

But at the end of the day - you have an opinion. And that is fine. I'll agree to disagree with you. But just because your opinion is different from stinky's doesn't mean his is bullshit and yours is truth.