Return of Reckoning

normanis wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:10 am also game clases is not balanced. sc dont give anymore good armor. now we have bastion stairs to farm dps gear for heal

Bloodlord is a bad dps set for range healers.

wiki is not updated so i have no idea. and noone whant to see dps healer in sc anyway, they are selfish and heal only thamselfs

normanis wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:21 am wiki is not updated so i have no idea. and noone whant to see dps healer in sc anyway, they are selfish and heal only thamselfs

You have no idea about a lot things, it seems.
And then again pugs complain about dps healers killing them and at the same time refuse to play alongside them.

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:48 pm Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

It's indicative of poor and/or unorganised players losing vs better and/or organised players - nothing more. If people are getting their **** kicked in on the regular then perhaps we should be asking them why they are seemingly so content to let it happen? Masochism? Some form of BDSM? I mean, there are some very easy steps (won't bore everyone regurgitating the same **** we should all know by now) to take to alleviate these daily ass-poundings, so why are we not encouraging people to take these steps?

The only segment of the community that it reflects badly on is the side who keep queuing, expecting things to change miraculously. The people doing the ass-pounding (as a direct result of getting organised, synergising comps, often going on comms, using the /assist function, using their Guards properly, healing, etc.) are just playing the game, as far as I'm concerned. Getting your ass beaten is a normal occurrence in PvP games: the question, however, then becomes whether you're actually gonna do something about it (finetune your spec, make friends, get better, stop queuing for all SC as as solo player, etc.), or are you gonna cry to the Heavens instead.

Let's start calling out people for expecting miraculous results for sloppy/unorganised play.

peterthepan3 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:12 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:48 pm Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

It's indicative of poor and/or unorganised players losing vs better and/or organised players - nothing more. If people are getting their **** kicked in on the regular then perhaps we should be asking them why they are seemingly so content to let it happen? Masochism? Some form of BDSM? I mean, there are some very easy steps (won't bore everyone regurgitating the same **** we should all know by now) to take to alleviate these daily ass-poundings, so why are we not encouraging people to take these steps?

The only segment of the community that it reflects badly on is the side who keep queuing, expecting things to change miraculously. The people doing the ass-pounding (as a direct result of getting organised, synergising comps, often going on comms, using the /assist function, using their Guards properly, healing, etc.) are just playing the game, as far as I'm concerned. Getting your ass beaten is a normal occurrence in PvP games: the question, however, then becomes whether you're actually gonna do something about it (finetune your spec, make friends, get better, stop queuing for all SC as as solo player, etc.), or are you gonna cry to the Heavens instead.

Let's start calling out people for expecting miraculous results for sloppy/unorganised play.

People are not content with getting their **** kicked in. They want a fair fight. The scenario matchmaking can only go so far on it's own while keeping the speed of pops reasonable.

They continue coming back because, like everyone else still here that aren't masochists, they enjoy the game as a whole, despite the **** they have to endure.

Acknowledgement that being farmed 500-0 as a really bad thing for player enjoyment paints the picture why we're getting code in to deal with it.

How well a player is organized or geared is up to them. If you are so geared and organized that you can cause sadistic misery on a wide enough scale that people would rage quit as a realm, congratulations, you've won. You can stop playing now. Mission accomplished. Ride off into the sunset knowing that you beat the game.

Of course, if you're so organized and competent, you might realize that incessantly beating people into the sand repeatedly who stand no real chance at matching your epic gear and elite skills, does not actually encourage most people to tryhard. A few, maybe, and we've heard that feedback for sure. But playerbases are not elitist in large amounts, they're casual. Even the niche PvP games.

We would rather have the community grow in population, skill will come in time, and you have your own playground to show off how big **** you are. Maybe we disable domination there and let you have your safe space.

Luuca wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:43 am As wargrimnir stated in many more words: The development team can only fix code. They cannot fix players.

This is a player problem, not a code issue. The only thing that sucks worse than not getting an SC pop is getting one with no tanks or no healers. Tanks and healers are less fun to play when compared to the satisfaction of Zapping or Pouncing another player into a pale pink mist. Play your tank or play your healer if you want wins.

Actually, before the matchmaking changes if you get a pop with no healers and no tanks you could always look forward to next pop that would happen in 5 minutes. You would get stomped, yeah, but at least it ended quickly.

Unbalanced pops would happen but the sheer amount of matches you could get would make them irrelevant in the long run. If a solo dps pug would get 40 pops per day and 10 of those were absolute shitfest comps that's a pretty good average.

I leveled both a sorc and a WE via solo pugging scenarios from 16 to 40 in the old matchmaking system, with absolute no problems with getting pops. Right now, doing the same would be impossible.

wargrimnir wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:53 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:12 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:48 pm Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

It's indicative of poor and/or unorganised players losing vs better and/or organised players - nothing more. If people are getting their **** kicked in on the regular then perhaps we should be asking them why they are seemingly so content to let it happen? Masochism? Some form of BDSM? I mean, there are some very easy steps (won't bore everyone regurgitating the same **** we should all know by now) to take to alleviate these daily ass-poundings, so why are we not encouraging people to take these steps?

The only segment of the community that it reflects badly on is the side who keep queuing, expecting things to change miraculously. The people doing the ass-pounding (as a direct result of getting organised, synergising comps, often going on comms, using the /assist function, using their Guards properly, healing, etc.) are just playing the game, as far as I'm concerned. Getting your ass beaten is a normal occurrence in PvP games: the question, however, then becomes whether you're actually gonna do something about it (finetune your spec, make friends, get better, stop queuing for all SC as as solo player, etc.), or are you gonna cry to the Heavens instead.

Let's start calling out people for expecting miraculous results for sloppy/unorganised play.

People are not content with getting their **** kicked in. They want a fair fight. The scenario matchmaking can only go so far on it's own while keeping the speed of pops reasonable.

They continue coming back because, like everyone else still here that aren't masochists, they enjoy the game as a whole, despite the **** they have to endure.

Acknowledgement that being farmed 500-0 as a really bad thing for player enjoyment paints the picture why we're getting code in to deal with it.

How well a player is organized or geared is up to them. If you are so geared and organized that you can cause sadistic misery on a wide enough scale that people would rage quit as a realm, congratulations, you've won. You can stop playing now. Mission accomplished. Ride off into the sunset knowing that you beat the game.

Of course, if you're so organized and competent, you might realize that incessantly beating people into the sand repeatedly who stand no real chance at matching your epic gear and elite skills, does not actually encourage most people to tryhard. A few, maybe, and we've heard that feedback for sure. But playerbases are not elitist in large amounts, they're casual. Even the niche PvP games.

We would rather have the community grow in population, skill will come in time, and you have your own playground to show off how big **** you are. Maybe we disable domination there and let you have your safe space.

It's absolutely astounding that you actually put the blame for such curbstomp SC on the people doing the winning and putting in the effort to win, instead of those who don't want to put in a modicum of work whatsoever.

I've already spammed how to incentivise tryhard play 100 times in a way that would benefit both tryhards (encouraging them to queue vs other premades, wanting to better themselves, an actual carrot) and casuals (by getting tryhards out of casual pugfarm routine in SC). That aside, there is absolutely nothing wrong in one side destroying the other side if there is a huge disparity between the two in terms of skill, organisation, and commitment: it's a PvP game, SC have equal numbers of players on each side, therefore you really need to fix up and look sharp if you want to come out on top. Pretty standard in every other PvP MMO I've played; you don't expect to win in fast-paced smallscale encounters without putting some elbow grease into it.

If 5+ years' worth of SC on RoR has told me anything, it is that skill will not come in time - particularly when all we seem to be encouraging is an environment that is pure carebear, and not about taking responsibility and fixing up your gameplay: you can't tell people that how organised they are is 'up to them', yet in the same breath expect them to experience evenly-matched SC versus tryhard premades. Similarly, if people are not content with getting their **** packed in every SC, and want a fair SC, then you either: a) force grouping, b) incentivise the tryhard SC to such a degree that they don't want to farm pugs anymore, or c) just ban premades from queuing altogether - just to appease those who don't want to put in any work whatsoever.

It's about time that we stop putting the blame on people who are playing the game to the best of their abilities, and it's nonsensical to suggest that people who are dominating others in a PvP game - through PvP - are the issue. Besides, if people getting their **** packed in on a regular basis is such an issue, then why are they not queuing for the dedicated PUG SC? I mean, isn't that what it was made for?

It's saddening to see that you seemingly have nothing but utter contempt towards any semblance of organised PvP (equating actually winning the majority of your PvP battles to 'causing sadistic misery on a wide scale' sorta gives it away), but you might want to take more measures not to betray this so often, as it may give off the impression that you are not impartial in how you view this.

wargrimnir wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:53 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:12 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:48 pm Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

It's indicative of poor and/or unorganised players losing vs better and/or organised players - nothing more. If people are getting their **** kicked in on the regular then perhaps we should be asking them why they are seemingly so content to let it happen? Masochism? Some form of BDSM? I mean, there are some very easy steps (won't bore everyone regurgitating the same **** we should all know by now) to take to alleviate these daily ass-poundings, so why are we not encouraging people to take these steps?

The only segment of the community that it reflects badly on is the side who keep queuing, expecting things to change miraculously. The people doing the ass-pounding (as a direct result of getting organised, synergising comps, often going on comms, using the /assist function, using their Guards properly, healing, etc.) are just playing the game, as far as I'm concerned. Getting your ass beaten is a normal occurrence in PvP games: the question, however, then becomes whether you're actually gonna do something about it (finetune your spec, make friends, get better, stop queuing for all SC as as solo player, etc.), or are you gonna cry to the Heavens instead.

Let's start calling out people for expecting miraculous results for sloppy/unorganised play.

People are not content with getting their **** kicked in. They want a fair fight. The scenario matchmaking can only go so far on it's own while keeping the speed of pops reasonable.

They continue coming back because, like everyone else still here that aren't masochists, they enjoy the game as a whole, despite the **** they have to endure.

Acknowledgement that being farmed 500-0 as a really bad thing for player enjoyment paints the picture why we're getting code in to deal with it.

How well a player is organized or geared is up to them. If you are so geared and organized that you can cause sadistic misery on a wide enough scale that people would rage quit as a realm, congratulations, you've won. You can stop playing now. Mission accomplished. Ride off into the sunset knowing that you beat the game.

Of course, if you're so organized and competent, you might realize that incessantly beating people into the sand repeatedly who stand no real chance at matching your epic gear and elite skills, does not actually encourage most people to tryhard. A few, maybe, and we've heard that feedback for sure. But playerbases are not elitist in large amounts, they're casual. Even the niche PvP games.

We would rather have the community grow in population, skill will come in time, and you have your own playground to show off how big **** you are. Maybe we disable domination there and let you have your safe space.

You see, you forgot about one fact that a lot new players are always will start with wipes and pain. The system which going to determinate to jump first hard year of players practice, will hurt to most of community (who played this game more than 1 year)

People need walk this path by themself or they never will understiand all subtleties of the gameplay process. You want jump above our heads and make their life easier, but you doesn't help them in a longtime period.
Always will be those who are low skilled and even over 10 years they will stay at the same place where they was, its normal.

Who want easy play without any tension of making grpoup and responsobity could que on pug scenes, ok make 1 more pug scenes for 2 limit.
People should have target whom they wanna be and how hard they will be when they get it. Nerf crit, nerf resolution and other stuffs are disabling this target of become successfull in this game

/thread

Peter and Wargrmnir are both right, and that's the problem. One is correct from an organized player point of view that wants some sort of competitive gameplay and the other is correct from a Game Master point of view who wants success in population and the game as a whole. There is no easy answer. The real question is where do the designers see the biggest chance of success. Limited playerbase of uber players, or larger playerbase of scrubs/tryhards/puggers whatever you want to call them. EDIT: what happens if you take out all gear from scenarios, do the supergroups still fight? Maybe the solution isn't to make both "parties" co-exist by force. Take out the carrot from scenarios (IE Weapons mostly) and see how that does.

Another possibly solution to the unbalanced and slow pop issues.

What about putting in "heroes" that are playable by a person, similar to the "live" fort champs or skaven, but at an average level. That way in an unbalanced scenario, there could be options, healer / tank / dps / rdps

WeGotThis wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:17 am Well i don't see much problem in SC's, yea the new buff for the loosing team is kind of a good idea,
which isnt optmal worked out (in my mind).

But we had even dropping numbers of SC's pop's months bevor that patch.

I see more than just 1 reason why people don't Que up for SC's..
But the biggest one i see in RvR. I remeber earlier times, when we had a full server with 1400/1400 player,
and with the bigger number over all the zerg was not that big, as it is now..

The changes in RvR made it more and more a "zerg" game, we have at EU Prime about 150-200 ppl on both sides,
sitting in 4-8WB's and camping WC or keep. So 300-400 people are just literally not able to Que for SC's,
because you cant while in warband.

Whole alliance with about 3-4 premade's left the game last year, or joining warbands.

You can't do anything as solo or small scale party against those mass.
If the zergs would split over multiple zones (2 or 3) more people would do 6 or 12 man, or duo, trio.
Then they would Que up in their sessions.
Yes i know, you can attack multiple zones, but that doesnt split the zerg when you need at least a warband to kill the keep lord in less than 30 minuts and therefor you mustn't have defenders.

Already getting to long, but the pool of players playing SC's and RvR is the same,
you cant magicaly fix SC's without change RvR

What's thing? Cannot split the zerg over multiple zones, then split it in this zone).